Sam
I really do think there is something to hills madness but I am with you damn they are slow I shoot a pretty straight up target style with a curve and am pretty accurate out to 50 yards anyways but a longbow seems smoother and less deliberate to shoot and for small game and quick shooting i think the longbow is a winner and for deliberate surgical accuracy hard to beat a curve

 

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WHY SHOOT A LONGBOW?

"I use the straight-end longbow for the simple reason that it requires a less exacting hold and loose to get necessary accuracy while hunting, where quick shots must be made from unconventional positions-standing, kneeling or sitting-not the traditional target archer's pose. Also, the longbow throws a heavy arrow much better than any recurve designed, which is necessary for sufficient big game penetration. The longbow is fast, smooth, sturdy and dependable, built to give many years of trouble-free service." - Howard Hill - who was a living legend in his day and probably did more to promote archery and the longbow than any other man.

We live in the age of modern technology. Fancy gadgets beckon us from every angle. The scene at the archery range or in the hunting camp "ain't like it used to be". Some of us like to stick with proven methods, others take to every change. Shooting the longbow recaptures the thrill of accomplishment through simplicity.

Let's "listen" to Hill again. " The straight end longbow gives you speed, stability and cast. It is feather-light in the hand and has excellent maneuverability.

"For those however who will be able to practice once or twice a week, and for all hunting archers, the longbow, with straight ends is the only one to consider".

The following is quoted from the book Sagittarius by Howard Hill's protégé Bob Swinehart as written about Howard Hill, his long-time teacher and friend.

"He (Hill) preferred the simple longbow, for many reason, but primarily because it is more accurate. Today this design is old fashioned compared to the fancy recurves (and compounds) and gadgets for bows, and consequently many archers would not be caught dead with a longbow. Like cars, glamour sells. Many people like to believe Howard used the longbow through all his years because he was set in his ways and resisted change. In turn, these people thought I used it because of Howard - because he was my idol I would blindly use it regardless of performance.

"But the last word above answers it - PERFORMANCE. It got the job done better than any other design of bow. It never ceased to amaze me how many people tried to talk Howard and me out of using the straight longbow, despite the fair amount of success we've had, when many of these same individuals have yet to bag so much as a rabbit and can't hit a barn door at ten paces".

And Swinehart himself - as quoted in part from Sagittarius.

"The long length means less error of the trajectory of an arrow. This is simple geometry. The more acute the angle the more deviation at any given distance. No release is ever perfect, and in bow hunting the release often must be hasty or unorthodox. consequently, with my longbow, my arrow, though not flawlessly released, may still strike the chest of an animal, whereas that same release from a shorter bow could mean a miss-there could be as much as a foot difference at 30 yards.

"Unorthodox shooting-the key to many hunts or interesting show performances is shooting an arrow from odd and awkward positions, like the bow upside down. The action and design of the longbow makes it possible to shoot accurately at any bow angle. Try it wit a recurve (or compound). It doesn't work half as well, particularly any quick release shots.

"Quiet-the design of a longbow makes it by far the quietest bow of any. When shooting at game this is important. A twangy bow string has spooked many a quarry. Deer are often alerted by the sound in time to evade the shaft. If there is a slight breeze or rustle among the leaves a person will often not hear my release from as close as ten yards. But my buddy's recurve, wow, sounds like he's playing the violin. When he shoots he alerts every animal within 100 yards.

"Heavy arrow-a long straight-limbed bow can accurately propel a much heavier arrow than a reflex or recurve bow , or any short bow.

 

Sam, many performance longbows form a D when strung, it is required by many federations. The old fashioned Hill style bow is very straight when unstrung whereas the modern bows have lots of R/D. Are they more forgiving to shoot, I dont think so. I can miss perfectly well with either a recurve or a longbow but I have always found recurves slightly more forgiving on form errors. I too have read that a longbow shoots a heavy arrow with more authority. I guess this could be true because of the longer cast but as I am always trying to find ways of getting my arrows lighter it may be the hunters that can answer this. I shot a 50lb Sagitarius bow a while ago, these are the old fashioned Hill style too, with my arrows I got 162fps at best, and a sore arm. Out of my own longbow with the same arrows I get 202fps so if you want good arrow speed go for a modern longbow IMHO

 

Mostly, I am interested in the claim that they are more "forgiving", easier to shoot etc. The hand shock associated with longbows is usually the first thing most often associate with them. I also have heard that the shooter must grip the LB to control it.

 

I think the extra length of most long bows is what makes them forgiving, shoot a 68" recurve and see how forgiving it is.
One bow that shoots a light arrow slower than another bow will shoot a heavy arrow slower also.

 

Roger's correct: Two things control how well a bow "casts" an arrow - energy storage efficiency (SE/PDF) and dynamic efficiency (DE). Straight-limbed longbows are poor in both categories. Not that they don't have their place and they appeal to lots of archers.

The myth that they shoot a heavy arrow more efficiently than a high-performance bow is just that - a myth.

How "forgiving" a bow is has always been a mystery to me. I'm a quant and not much interested in debating subjective matters because they're, well, subjective and therefore very personal in meaning. However, a bow that shoots an arrow weighing "X"-grains-per-pound of draw at 155 fps versus another one that shoots an arrow weighing "X"-grains-per-pound at 190 fps has never seemed more forgiving to me simply because it was slower. At least in terms of vertical misses the faster bow would be more forgiving it seems to me.

 

Roger's correct: Two things control how well a bow "casts" an arrow - energy storage efficiency (SE/PDF) and dynamic efficiency (DE). Straight-limbed longbows are poor in both categories. Not that they don't have their place and they appeal to lots of archers.

The myth that they shoot a heavy arrow more efficiently than a high-performance bow is just that - a myth.

How "forgiving" a bow is has always been a mystery to me. I'm a quant and not much interested in debating subjective matters because they're, well, subjective and therefore very personal in meaning. However, a bow that shoots an arrow weighing "X"-grains-per-pound of draw at 155 fps versus another one that shoots an arrow weighing "X"-grains-per-pound at 190 fps has never seemed more forgiving to me simply because it was slower. At least in terms of vertical misses the faster bow would be more forgiving it seems to me.

Stability is not subjective at all...
Stability is almost the oposit of speed in many cases... High preload in 99% of all bow cases a source of instability. You have to DAM clever to sort out the geom issues, associated with high preload instability.

Lets look at what makes a bow stable.

If you look at the bows centre of gravity, you need the grip infront of that.
For exactly the same reasons why planes with wings below them create a "V" as the lift point is above the aircraft, while those with cheap wings that are stright have, the weight suspended below the wing to keep the plaine stable.

The bows grip needs to be infront of the centre of gravity...ie deflexed
this concept reduces the bow torque induced by release parradox.

The grip needs to be repeatable. Pistol grips are easier to get more consistancy with, this makes a bow a little more forgiving.

must dissagree that stability is subjective. 144 arrows, over 30-90 meters, top scores are shooting recurves and are putting in scores of 1320, where a max score is 10 points per arrow. perfect score of 1440.
get rid of the release hand issues by way of trigger and you can get scores of 1400, so NP stability is VITAL.

Now we need to look at the bow as a whole, to solve two areas of this instability...
look at the nocking point. it needs to be a reliable as possible. It needs to be reliable in two axis, both vertical and horizontal.
Lets look at the horizontal to start with.
as you release the string, it travels in the opposit direction to your release fingers. crossbow latches either lift up or drop down, id pefere a lift up latch, as it drops the string down on to the track makeing sure it doesnt lift over the nock of the bolt.
Note in a bow you dont have the track to catch the strings sideways movement. So where is the first point of resistance.the forward movement of the limb will help pull the string into line, but the limb will be prone to sideways deflection... That sideways deflection of the limb, as seen in W&W top down video, shows the left right deflection of the limb.
This deflection will be enhanced on limbs with little torsional stability, and while this is a problem, its still exagerated with a deep plucked loose vs a clean loose. So a bow that handles the horizontal nock travel well, will be more forgiving of poor release techneques.
Now if you want a techneque to measure this, you can get a bow to full draw, and measure the torque resistance of the grip (dont try this at home as you can pull the bow off the string)
The HH grip was deep which gives a level of depth to help catch the release hand torque. this does need good bow hand techneque, so the grip also suffers by this same token.
The next one is vertical stability.
Vertical stability is how hard the string will resist a up and down movement.
high stress R/D bows are normally very poor in this area, This is where and form issues that lead to a dragging top or bottom finger during release leads to a porpoising effect on the np path. this is due to the two limbs fighting over the imbalance and creates limb flap. Bows that "close" quickly are ones that settle down quickly are ones that have good limb timing, but are also vertically stable. This is a bow where the term "Noodly limbs" applies.
I'll give you an example, The ILF longbow limbs are noodly, untill you use a high brace height where they become "acceptable", BUT ILF recurve limbs are acceptable though a bigger range, which hugely indicates better overall vertical stability.

to measure this you need a little loop attached to the serving, a spring balance to that and with say a 3lbs load, note how much fore and aft deflection of the limb tip do you get...

Bows are nothing but geometry/engeneering and physics. everything can be quantifiably measured if you know where to look.

you need to do some sprint training , and your coach will tell you to stop running like a soccer player, elbows out and bobbing from side to side, if you want speed, keep it all nice and tight and in a straight line. bows are just the same...

 

Sam, forget that "grip the bow" thing. I shoot all my longbows with a finger sling and an open hand, it's another myth.

 

I think through all of this talk about forgiveness in a bow that it comes down to length. As far as more accurate hmmm. Did Fred Bear shoot a longbow? was he accurate?. I think again some ppls style or lack of in my case, suits a certain type of bow. That being said I think you can get used to anything.

I still believe if you have ONE bow and shoot it ONLY you are going to know that bow inside and out. Ppl with too many bows usually STILL have a favorite GO TO BOW...why cause that's the one that suits them and they shoot it better than the rest of them.

Maybe the grip is a little different - maybe the limbs are a bit different...then you have to match arrows and they are all different in flight tradjectory etc.....how can you ever become accurate if you are constantly changing your equipment.

I know if I changed my hockey stick every shift I would be a mess - different flex/curve/length/tape job...etc....then play with shoulder pads on and without...dull skates sharp skates....it all affects your muscle memory...

Sorry to all the bowyers who want us to have 20 or more bows but I think it's counter productive really.


That's why I ordered two sets of limbs for my ACS riser ( I love this new bow I got from Mike though - but it will probably find a home with our barebow competitor here for the winter games - he shot it the other night and LOVES IT)

i think that's the big plus with a take down or a ILF riser...you have the same RISER/GRIP....

You atleast have some common ground on which to build from.

I wanted a light set for 3d and form shooting and light big game and a heavier set for BIG GAME....

I think I will be further ahead just having the same riser/grip each time and the same length of bow.

How many different lengths of bows did HH have - maybe changed his poundage but I bet he kept the rest of it pretty standard...just guessing of course.

Jer

 

The main thing you have to look at when grasping quotes for years gone by is what else was on the market at that time that would be better.

Hills Bamboo layered longbows were the big dingers of his time. But when you fast forward you see other materials coming into play that make other bow styles faster and easier too shoot.

I venture to say that if Hill was here now he'd be shooting a modern designed bow or he wouldn't be the top shot at the todays tournements like he was then.

Mike

 

I agree Mike and remember Hill was also promoting and selling his own Longbows,why would he promote Recurves as being better than his own Longbows.

End of the Day forgiveness accuracy etc is the person behind the string.

In the UK we had a Recurve Div and Longbow Div that both shot wood arrows myself and 3 other Longbows out shot this Recurve Div in National tourneys but looking at the average scores always showed the Recurves as having consistently higher scores.

 

I think Jerbear and Mike are dead on with their point's.Sam if you want the d bow experience without spending a bunch of money.Just go out to your shop get a rubber mallet.Hit yourself 3 or 4 times in the elbow.And maybe a couple times in the wrist.Every time i've shot one thats kinda what it felt like.LOL

 

remember too that a lot of the "bow-lore" that is accepted and promulgated by "traditional archers" simply is that; "lore". It may well have been un-disprovable in earlier times, or maybe even accurate with the older material and design bows of several generations bygone.

However with todays technology we can test to a much finer edge and our contemporary materials and design development have made huge changes in both knowledge and performance.

also too, don't confuse D-shape and D-section bows, ------ though most true d-section longbows will also form a d-shape when strung.

 

My longbows are defiantly very forgiving. I can shoot curves for a month, and when I at last return to pickup one of my long bows, they always forgive me for being away so long. Never yet has one held a grudge!!! They love me, even though they know I'll cheat on them again sooner or later. I have an addiction!

 

Brother Falcon, I have a cure for the addiction! Saving money for Elk hunting will sure cure you, lol

 

I've only really shot 2 longbows for more than 2 or 3 shots and these were Gurnies two bows, a Savannah and a Tomahawk. I shot both of them like I had shot them all my life. I don't really understand they forgiving stuff. I found neither of these bows hateful in the least. I absolutely loved the Savannah and was shooting it like I knew what I was doing. I like them alot and will have one when the time is right. A used Bear Montana looks to be in range for me later this year, and supposedly they smoke a dang arrow.

 

Jeff did take right to the longbow and was really shootin good with it. My own feelin is that when you say longbow that covers ah lot of different kinds ah bows and that makes it hard ta just speak like one is the same as the others as far as forgivness. Heres ah interestin talk about it from some old boys that I recon should know ah little about em.

http://www.versuscountry.com/the-best-and-worst-of-tred-barta/videos/long-bow-vs-recurve/

 

the two worst nomenclatures in tradbow archery are 1) instinctive shooting and 2) longbow. neither on tells you anything ya need to know and both don't likely represent anything that you can understand from the name that the using wants to convay.

rusty

 

My peronsal opinion is that "they" are carzy. it is hard for me believe or understand that the "longbow" is more forgiving than the FITA bow. I mean ya got stablilizers, bow weights, prefect grip style for you, a plunger that I promise beyond any doubt from me sokes up some of my ify release problems, and a magentic flippy rest that can be tuned for absolute arrow clearance on and on and on....what are they talking about. are "they" crazy?

I'll believe it as soon as the 90 meter record is set with a long bow.

rusty

 

yes I will accept long bow limb on a FITA riser. all ya gotta do is set the 90 meter world record. Like I said it is all in the riser

rusty

 

Rusty instinctive shooting to me is just repeated pratice ah concentratin on ah spot with no reference of aming pin like ah arrow point. Like pichin ah ball. Do I think it is as accurate especally at longer distance, most likley not cause I dont know any traget shooters that use it. Maybe Rick Welsh but it just seems handy ta me at huntin distance that my equimpment has the power ta cleanly do the job. I dont feel good at shootin ah big game animal over twenty five yds with my set up for the odds of ah clean kill.
Instintive It 's real clear ta me when I go in the basement at short range and shoot at ah lazer beam dot with all the lights off. I think some of the confusion is that some folks aint like other folks. I have ah hard time concentratin on two different things at the same time. some folks dont. Thats my personal and mental fault.
The only plus is it leaves me the only option of instinctive shootin
so when thats all ya got ya make it work for ya. I agree that ah decked out recurve would be more forgivin than ah not cut ta center longbow with thin limbs shootin off the shelf.
Thats ah handicap folks chose ta put on themselfs. I thought that was what trad huntin was all about. Then again If I want ta remove my handicap I can skip the decked out recurve, pic up my Mathews Monster and whack em at quite long distances. Or even my little Horton X-bow with ah scope. I'll bet ah good 300WSM with ah good glass on it settin on sand bags is ah lot more forgiven them em all. so I recon ah man would be ah fool ta shoot iron sights.

 

The thing to do would be to strap two side by side in a shooting vise and let the arrows fly. Sight them in at 90 meters, and begin the launching. If they both can hold the same size groups, ( and I would bet they will ) then all this forgiveness stuff is in our heads. A lot of extra aids rarely get put on long bows. I don't think I've ever seen a long bow with riser weights and a 3' stabilizer sticking out the front! Longbows generally are not as tunable (not cut passed center) as a modern recurves. That right there could put you at a slight disadvantage to start off with. Them DAS boy's new what they were doing when they designed that rig!

 

Like I said, I couldn't tell if there were any forgiven or unforgiven differences between my recurves and Gurnies Longbows. I think for my southeastern Kentucky hunting purposes, one wouldn't be able to tell any difference between the two. Gurnie sure could have left the Savannah here with me without any worry of it being neglected.

I think sometimes we get the lines blurred just as much between target vs. hunting applications as we do with shooting styles or aiming styles. I think in the end, you really simply have to find and use what fits you and you only.

 

That "longbows are more forgiving than a recurve" statement.......doesn't work for me. My comments below relate to wooden hunting bows, not target bows.

I have two 66" take down pistol grip recurves and had a 68" one piece straight grip hybrid longbow. My two recurves were head and shoulders above the longbow in terms of a smoother draw and accuracy. I could never shoot the longbow well enough accuracy wise and I attribute that to the straight grip of the longbow. The straight grip always felt uncomfortable to me. After two years of trying to master the straight grip of the longbow, I sold the longbow. That was the first and "last" longbow I'll ever buy.

 

I think a HH type Bow in low poundage with a locater type grip might be a fun Squirrel Bow. Slower speeds and some wood bin dowels with flu's might be fun after the Bushys and other critters. Think I will try one to play with for these applications. I like it all. May just fire the chainsaw up and chase a couple of Bois de arcs I know about. Split em and seal the ends, lay them under my bed for a couple of years.

 

I'm going to go way out on a limb here, and probably start sawing on it behind me. My take is "forgiveness" basically means tolerance for sloppy form. I think the original "forgiveness" idea was a comparison between the older generation recurves and longbows of Howard Hills era, and it was framed in a "marketing" context.

I suspect that "Forgiveness" meant that with a long bow you could grab a bow and go hunting with less skill development and still bring home the bacon. I don't think it had anything to do with shooting 10s on scorable targets. I think applying it to what I see annually, forgiveness means hitting the foam critter and not losing an arrow, hitting it more or less in a presumed vital area, and not adding up the scoring marks. I think the "forgiveness" is in the perception of the shooter in that the very basic, bare-bones nature of the longbow can permit a more casual approach, and dare I say it, a broader standard of accuracy

I think that in general "most" of the run-of-the-mill "Traditional archers" I have watched on the practice ranges at the Compton event exhibit really technically poor shooting habits. My usual work station at the event is in that area. It is also the beginning and ending of the foam critter trails. Among other things I also tend to loosely monitor the lost and found arrow buckets. My thought s are pretty much based on my observations.

My perception is that the average longbow shooter I watch is less proficient than the average recurve shooter. (and the average metal riser bow shooter seems most likely to have worked on their technical skills) The longbow shooters, as a group are more likely to be snatch and snap shooters with a "minute of deer" shooting standard.

I want to make it VERY clear that this is not a judgement of all archers, all longbow shooters or all longbows. I have seen some exceptionally fine shooting done by longbow shooters, and some abysmally poor archery performed by recurve archers (including metal bowed guys---myself included) I have seen a few really skilled LB shooters who. while making what at first seem to be fast snappy--but accurate-- shots, are clearly taking a well formed and anchored shot with a clean release---but at high speed obviously due to well developed skills. Sadly they are exceptional enough to be noticeable.

At Comptons the "Turkey Shoot" side event is just around the corner from my station and just out of sight so I don't observe it nearly as much, but it draws a pretty active crowd, my less than adequate perception is that long bows dominate there since it seems to be a reflexive shooting-style event. I'd guess that the longbows also dominate on the night time adult aerial event as well. Both event seem to me to be better suited for the typical LB snap shooter than the average deliberate recurve archer.

I also have some thoughts based on the lost and found arrow buckets that seem to back my opinion up to some extent, but I want to mull them over a bit more before pontificating on them in this context.

Obviously these are my own highly personal opinions and reflect on NO SPECIFIC archer, especially including the guys on the site here who make it to the Compton event

 

Longbows reputation of handling shooting errors better might be due their thicker limbs which just are less sensitive of plucking etc.
Try to twist the straight tips sideways or move the nockingpoint up and down, a longbow reacts less to this.
But compared as a whole, add the little stacking, less centercut, lighter mass...And the longbow loses every time in forgiveness against a takedown recurve.Maybe compared to a slim 50-style curve there could be a race.

r.mika