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  #1  
Old 01-05-2021, 02:37 PM
cruxarche cruxarche is offline
 
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Default Newbie with question

HI all,
I am new to archery. I am shooting a Monarch (sage) 62" with 29# limbs. I have about a 28.5" draw and am shooting Fleetwood carbon 700's with 100 tips. I am shooting off the rest.

I have done some hunting (rifle/shotgun)and am familiar with the importance of consistent mounts and the impact of flinching etc.

After about three weeks of practice I am beginning to develop consistency in my anchor, which is thumb joint behind jaw and index finger against cheek bone. I am using a combination of string walking and gap shooting and spending most of my time at 20 yards.

My main question is about string placement against my face. I am comfortable with the string up against the tip of my nose, or along the side of my nose. Is there a preferred placement? I was originally drawing the string to the right side of my nose. I can shoot consistently this way. But I found that my point of impact was to the right of my point of aim. I have not been super conscious of string alignment, but experimented with that today to see if I could use the string alignment to move the POI to the left a little. It did work.

Today I also experimented with just bringing the string to the tip of my nose instead of along the side. I found this resulted in bringing my POI more in line with my aim, which was sightly counterintuitive since it also moves the sting to the left relative to the rest in my sight picture which would seem to make the arrow move even more to the right.

Finally i tested different yardage and this really confused me. With the sting on my nose tip, at 20 yards my L/R is dead on. But at 40 yards POI is 12-18 inches to the left. And at 50 yards its even further to the left.

So i am pretty confused to say the least. Is there an explanation why i could be hitting POI at point of aim at 20 yards but be hitting left at further distances?

I am having a blast with all of this and am looking forward to slowing figuring this all out!

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2021, 05:28 AM
KirkMcquest KirkMcquest is offline
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Default Re: Newbie with question

Could be your arrows are too stiff? That would explain them drifting left at higher yardages. Could also be your body alignment is off. When your arrow hit at 20 yds, are they straight or are the backs pointing slightly to the right?

If they are pointing right it could mean that you are coming in at an angle, which is too slight to effect your POI at 20yds but magnified over distance.
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  #3  
Old 01-07-2021, 04:30 PM
MartyA MartyA is offline
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Default Re: Newbie with question

Mostly, with barebow, if you are 'sighting' along the arrow and your eye aligns with it and the string blur, your string will be alongside your nose. Mostly, you will notice many barebow shooters as they draw will anchor with a finger touching at or near a tooth, some use the canine tooth. Mostly, you'll see many barebow shooters do it this way... Mostly.... Well, this works for me.

How YOUR form manifests YOUR shot is up to you. But first learn good form however you do that - coach, videos, etc. Your arrow spine is close enough to learn good form now, and it is possible your arrow needs will change later.
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  #4  
Old 01-07-2021, 08:18 PM
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longbowguy longbowguy is offline
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Default Re: Newbie with question

We hereabouts shoot and aim our bows in various ways. But the most common since time immemorial is to draw to the right side of the face. If the arrow does not then go down the line we wish, most commonly to the left, the best remedy is to tune your tackle not to contort your body or alter your aim. Too stiff arrows go left, too bendy ones go right.

So the first thing to try is to make your current arrows bend more but putting much heavier points on. If you arrows were cut short that would have stiffened them, so replacing them with ones left full length would help.

But your should also check your posture. Longbows are usually shot canted to the right with the spine and the head canted a bit in the same direction. Shooting a longbow is akin to shotgunnery. Lean a bit forward and to the right, draw until your back feels right and then lay your face down gently on your hand, as you would on the stock of your favorite shotgun.

Shoot for a while up close, ten yards or less, and don't aim; just look where you want to hit. Feel the shot - feel not think. Then kindly let us know how it is going and we can help some more.

Welcome to our merry band. - lbg
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  #5  
Old 01-07-2021, 09:32 PM
Hank D Thoreau's Avatar
Hank D Thoreau Hank D Thoreau is online now
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Default Re: Newbie with question

First thing to recognize is that stringwalking is an advanced technique and requires good form to accomplish consistently. Second, stringwalking is best done with a much longer bow to minimize the imbalance of the bow as you walk the string. A 62 inch Sage clone is not the type of bow that is suited to stringwalking. Third, if you are still trying to establish a consistent anchor then you are not even close to being where you need to be to stringwalk, or shooting beyond 10 or 15 yards except for fun. Anchor is lesson #1. I would suggest that if you are new to shooting then this is all about execution, especially if you are already working on shooting longer distances. Also, it is perfectly normal for your arrows to move horizontally when you walk the string. The better you execute, the better able you are to keep the arrows close to the center line. There are a couple of contributors to this: arrow position changing relative your eye at different crawls; tune and balance issues as you change crawls.

My suggestion is to go back to 10 yards and work on form using a standard hook (no stringwalking) and the point of the arrow to aim. Shoot the other distances for fun but wait until you can shoot consistently at shorter distances before moving back for your real learning practice. Move back in small increments, maybe 5 yards at a time. Don't rush it. It is easier to learn at shorter distance. Because at shorter distances you have to aim well below the mark you want to hit, I like to put a piece of tape on the target where I want to place my point. I can then see how my arrows group. This is a variant of blank baling. I regularly practice shooting without a target face but using the tape to give me a consistent aiming point so I can better judge the results.

I competed out to 90 meters (98 yards) and yet I do a lot of practice at 15 yards. This allows me to really focus on how I am executing. Once I am happy I start moving back. Distance brings on a number of complexities. Elevating the bow higher without breaking form and adjusting to a different sight picture are just two. If you go back to 10 yards you will not have to worry about arrow spine. You can work on moving the arrows around by improving your form rather than trying to have an arrow change make up for what are most likely form deficiencies.

Learning archery is not a race. There are no quick fixes. You need a plan and diligently stick to it. Put in the time and you will see the rewards, but time without a plan, may not lead to adequate progress. A plan includes picking the form you are trying to learn, the approach you plan to take to learn it, and the reference materials and/or teachers you are going to use to learn.

Good luck; have fun; and let us know how it goes.
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Last edited by Hank D Thoreau; 01-08-2021 at 09:08 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-08-2021, 06:55 AM
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stevelong stevelong is online now
 
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Default Re: Newbie with question

welcome to the forum.
GUESSING HERE that you are off a tiny bit left at 20 yards, then if you think of lines, the angle changes as your distance changes, so that at 25 you're off a few couple inches, 3-4 at 30, 4-5 at 40, and more at 50 yards.
Guessing you say shooting off the rest, (line 1 first post) you mean the shelf.
Typically when we say REST we mean an elevated rest - like with a flipper arm, etc.
Good advice the guys above gave.
My first easy guess is arrows are stiff. 30# bow & normal 28"ish DL & .700s with 100s (HOW LONG arrows?) seems stiff.
Like longbowguy said if try heavier points go a lot, to try to be sure of a reaction change in arrow impact. Sometimes a minor change in point weight doesn't really tell much.
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  #7  
Old 01-13-2021, 09:00 PM
cruxarche cruxarche is offline
 
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Default Re: Newbie with question

thank thank you for all the replies. (BTW, broken finger so please excuse the lack of caps) i appreciate the responses.

i have been out to the range several times since i last posted. and yes, i did intend to say shooting off the shelf, not rest. i am still getting used to the terminology.

my anchor is settled now, with the string coming to the side of my face/nose. the experiment of bringing it to the tip of my nose did not feel comfortable. i have also picked up some new 600 arrows with different weight tips to experiment.

something i posted seemed to indicate to some of you that i am in a hurry. nothing could be further from the truth. the distance shooting was just for fun to see if i could even hit the paper. i do this occasionally after practice as i leave the range and walk by the more distant targets. it was at that point i realized my arrows were hitting left at longer distances. i shoot almost exclusively at 20.

my groups are getting better. when i am warmed up, at 20 yards my groups of 3 are usually within a radius of a tennis ball, and even in golf ball size pattern. my first two arrows often touch, but i frequently lose concentration by the third arrow. so if an arrow is going to be off it is the third one. i am still unconsciously changing either my form, or my aim--because my groups tend to cluster in slightly different areas depending on the day, or even within the same shooting session.

i think somehow i am unconsciously changing my aim or something in my form. my groups will still be tight, but in a slightly different place!

I am getting some coaching from a local archer. nobody has indicated to me that my gear is not appropriate for string walking. in fact that seems like the variable least likely to effect my poi. other factors in my form seem to control the flight of the arrow more dramatically.

anyways, thanks for supporting this forum, and newbies with questions and thoughts.
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  #8  
Old 01-14-2021, 09:04 AM
Hank D Thoreau's Avatar
Hank D Thoreau Hank D Thoreau is online now
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Default Re: Newbie with question

Recognize that stringwalkers represent a small proportion of traditional shooters. Folks that have really studied stringwalking and understand it beyond just holding a distance below the arrow is even smaller. When you stringwalk you break many of the rules that we associate with shooting. You will be shooting a bow that is intentionally untuned. That means that arrow recommendations to fix left/right issues using a normal shooting method may not be appropriate for a stringwalker. A key element to a good tune is having a balanced bow. Balance impacts the shot in two ways: (1) it makes the bow easier to aim; (2) force is applied to the arrow in the desired direction of flight.

(1) An unbalanced bow will fight you. It will want to either raise or lower the point of the arrow as you draw. A way to see this is to attach a long rod to the front of you bow (one of those long stabilizers the Olympic shooters use). As you draw the bow the long rod should stay level. If the bow is not balanced, the long rod with either raise or lower. This is a force that the shooter must counter act in order to keep the bow aimed properly.

(2) A stringcrawl causes the bottom limb to be stronger than the top limb. This throws the timing of the bow out, like shooting a compound bow with untimed cams. The extent to which the bow is unbalanced depends on the length of the crawl (from the tuned balance point) to the length of the string. As such, the longer the string, the less imbalance experienced. Therefore, to minimize bow imbalance you want to shoot the longest bow possible. I shoot a 74 inch super recurve which uses a 72 inch string. Your 62 inch bow is probably using a 59 inch string. This also applies to the first example. A longer bow will reduce the amount that the bow wants to raise or lower when drawn.

Stringwalkers must learn to compensate for these imbalance issues. Some of that is done with bow setup, and some is done by adjusting the way the archer shoots or where the arrow is aimed. Some archers use their plunger to adjust the tune for different crawls. Others aim off to the side a certain amount to compensate for the left/right errors you get. Most importantly though, you have to learn to shoot an untuned bow. The better you are at shooting an untuned bow, the less adjustments you have to make.

Are you thinking of stringwalking off the shelf? That may work for fixed crawl, where you can balance the bow for single crawl point, but it is not good for shooting multiple crawls (fixed crawl is not stringwalking since you are only shooting one crawl with no walking of the string). There is a downward force when an arrow is released. There is some give to a rest which limits the bounce. You won't get this shooting off of a hard shelf. Shooting long crawls is about controlling the bounce. That is why there are some drop away rests designed specifically for stringwalkers.
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  #9  
Old 01-14-2021, 09:41 AM
cruxarche cruxarche is offline
 
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Default Re: Newbie with question

Hank-
Thank you for that informative reply. I look forward to learning about all these different forces and how they interact...
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  #10  
Old 01-14-2021, 10:27 AM
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monkeyball monkeyball is offline
 
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Default Re: Newbie with question

Welcome to the forum. Archery is a great hobby/lifestyle to have. Glad you chose to delve into it.

I am with the guys that are saying to stiff or to heavy of a spined arrow. If you just picked up some .600's you are even going stiffer.

You would want to go to 800's to weaken your spine. You could also go with a heavier point weight up front with the 700's. That will weaken the spine in itself, but also make the entire arrow a bit heavier.

i was shooting a 28# Sky takedown with .800 and a 100 gr up front. They flew like missiles. I am thinking they would be a good choice for your setup also.

Good Luck, and Good Shooting->->->->Craig
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