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  #21  
Old 03-09-2013, 06:29 AM
Stringwalker Jack Stringwalker Jack is offline
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasyad View Post
Yep, I would agree there is always a risk when overdrawing conventional limbs. Of course any limb will fail when pushed too far. That said super recurve geometry and advanced materials allow a range of use that clearly exceeds the performance envelope of conventional limbs and especially limbs of lesser materials and lesser craftsmanship.

Rasyad
There's nothing in a Border limb that can't be found in a Samick or Win Win or any other modern limb. Nor would I even suggest the other major makers have lesser craftsmanship. Just saying.
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  #22  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

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Originally Posted by Stringwalker Jack View Post
There's nothing in a Border limb that can't be found in a Samick or Win Win or any other modern limb. Nor would I even suggest the other major makers have lesser craftsmanship. Just saying.
Jack,

On that you are 100% wrong. There is no other manufacturer that has the materials tech of Border. Uukha might be close, but in a different direction (monolithic construction).
Samick, W&W and Hoyt are just now getting to where Border was 10 years back.

I'd put their long-discontinued TX series against anyone else's current premier limbs.

-Grant
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  #23  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Dana,
Pretty much the same as now, a couple pounds less. New limbs should be 50# @ 27.

Rasyad
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  #24  
Old 03-09-2013, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Jack, I'd agree with Grant on that and if you ever make it to this part of the world I'd be glad to give you the opportunity to reconsider your opinion.

I have a reasonable selection of Borders old and current stuff and a few of your old favourites to compare with.

Just bring your 30" DL............

Or a very thick glove.
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  #25  
Old 03-09-2013, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Jack. here is some reading for you:

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1969981

Choose the conventional shorter limbs on a longer riser and give a super recurve an even bigger lead...
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  #26  
Old 03-09-2013, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Sid,

Small world, Joe on ArcheryTalk is talking about the limbs he just bought from me. I am shooting the matching pair on my 25" TF Apex riser.

Rasyad
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  #27  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallworld#section_1

is the software i used for my third year at university.
BSc hons in Geographical information systems.

so yes small world it is.
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  #28  
Old 03-11-2013, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Actually, other recurve limbs *do* have something that Border HEX limbs just don't have:

Glass.

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  #29  
Old 03-11-2013, 04:15 AM
Stringwalker Jack Stringwalker Jack is offline
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Border's limb geometry is different, but the material making up the limb is not from Mars. The carbon components are the same as found in other limbs. Perhaps Sid arranged them in a way that was first in the industry but that is all.

I remain unconvinced the Border limb contains anything not found in upper level Korean limbs, or limbs by other makers.

Having worked myself in the racing boat industry for 20 years and being familiar with carbon and bonding agents technology, I can tell you Sid is a great salesman with a loyal but somewhat fawning following. (no offence intended, just an observation)
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  #30  
Old 03-11-2013, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringwalker Jack View Post
Border's limb geometry is different, but the material making up the limb is not from Mars. The carbon components are the same as found in other limbs. Perhaps Sid arranged them in a way that was first in the industry but that is all.

I remain unconvinced the Border limb contains anything not found in upper level Korean limbs, or limbs by other makers.

Having worked myself in the racing boat industry for 20 years and being familiar with carbon and bonding agents technology, I can tell you Sid is a great salesman.
you will know that S2 glass is not ordinary bow glass.
Bow glass is E glass.
So our TX40 laminate was S2 Glass, cross weave carbon. UD carbon.
the S2 being the outer laminate.
we stopped using this laminate in 2007. and started it in 2001.

ok, now go and look up the Samick range of BF and BF 2 and masters limb.
KPC, on another forum had a 3 year debate over this one about the tradtech limb not containing glass. he stommped up and down about it not being the case. even John Wort told me there was no glass on a Extreme BF limb.
Turns out that it does. and i was right. S2 glass = Zentron S.
so there is a glass in the top end samick limbs.

as for the Hoyt limb. They are not even glear glass on the belly. they contain black glass on the belly, and the limb mass does represent this.

As for W&W. well there Inno was supposed to be a total carbon laminate. but they dont seem to be saying much about the ex series.

and not all carbon is equal.

Id like to see them using the same carbons as we do. that would be interesteing. esp for the money they are selling W&W limbs for.

Whats the mass difference between a N-Apecs. and a EX -Power?
what is the TS difference in the. if you cant feel any change, then there isnt much difference, and if you can get the N-apecs for less moneys.

Id be very confident that our smoothness and speed would be seen by 99% of all people that tried them back to back with any Korean product.

We have seen reports that we are between 4-10 fps faster than any mass produced limb like for like. price for price. but if you wanted a conventional profile, then we do that too. our CV series will deliver more speed, but a SLIGHT smoothness gain over the likes of a Inno type limb but our conventional limb is $378 for the wood core.
Why spend 600 bucks for a limb when somthing thats torsionally stiffer, slighty faster, and slightly smoother than anything out there, for $378 or $443 for the full hyperflex core.

Jack you really have a downer on us.

I can assure you there are NOT many limbs out there with a SE/PDF value of over 1.0 at 28"... we didnt do that without doing our homework.

NOW remember they are going though a dealer , who are taking thier 30-40% cut. so remember they dont have the materials budget since its part gobbled up in dealer discounts.

there are at least 28 different specs of carbon. excluding the use of nanotubes, and resin systems. some of these are expesnive. We have to piggy back some F1 team orders to get some of the carbons we need. Special order stuff, not normal production runs from even the carbon manufacturers dont run this stuff normally.
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  #31  
Old 03-11-2013, 04:36 AM
Stringwalker Jack Stringwalker Jack is offline
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Sid, nobody is required to believe in your limb. I know John Megara is not a believer. I've read his thoughts on your limbs.

You make a fast limb - no doubt about it. But your materials are not magic even if you think they are.

I'll let this go. Have made my comment and if nothing else is true, it's true you have more energy then me and are capable of much more advertising copy. I get bore easily and cannot read it all.

When the Korean national team trots out a big hook like yours with magic materials involved I'll start considering your limb. I only look at what the top team shooters are shooting. Afterall, it's their job to win. If your limb was better at 70 meters all makers of limbs would be copying your model. Just like Earl Hoyt's shape got copied. Only the best shape wins in the end. And you're not even on the map in the Olympic world. Not yet anyway. Write me back when your limb makes the smallest groups constantly at 70 and 90 meters.
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

The magic is that its driven by maths. Driven by engineering. founded on hypothesis testing. the magic that got man on the moon.
We have been at this for some time.
We have one degree in chemistry.
Mechanical engeneering
and 2 other BCs Hons.
we have a sum total of 96 years of bow making experience. including 1 european Barebow champion. one scotish IFAA (SFAA) ex team member. 2 NFAS national champs, 3 scotish NFAS champions. and that excludes my 2 place under 18 european IFAA in portugal.
My dad is currently the scotish champ at marked distance 3d.

there was a french magazine test that was impartial. There was no allegiances with manufacturers. no hairy fairy supposed "feelings"...
all back to sound engineering. the test was back in 2003. have a look at the numbers.

I have a copy of the magazine here.

Well, the main stats of the test went like this: (all 38lbs 70" limbs)
Speed:
W&W Focus: 206fps
W&W Winact: 205 fps
Hoyt FX: 210fps
TX40 Gold:212 fps
Border Premier Carbon:207fps

Torsional resistance to 15lbs side load (deflection in mm)
W&W Focus: 6.2mm
W&W Winact: 5.1mm
Hoyt FX: 7.3mm
TX40 Gold: 5.4mm
Border Premier Carbon: 4.8mm
Edit:We have also noted although the article has mm in its text, we are under the thinking its more like cm.

Stored energy:
W&W Focus: 29.5ftlbs
W&W Winact: 30ftlbs
Hoyt FX: 30.5ftlbs
TX40 Gold:31.5ftlbs
Border Premier Carbon: 31ftlbs

that was our S2 glass limb. back in 2003.
our limbs featured in the following categories without compromise in other areas.
LEAST SIDE LOAD deflection.
Best speed.
Best stored energy.
the prices were included.
We were mid priced .
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  #33  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stringwalker Jack View Post
Write me back when your limb makes the smallest groups constantly at 70 and 90 meters.
How many of the National team of Korea shoot non Korean limbs?

go find Mr Frangilli's World record at 70meters then, back in 1996.

have you seen our list of achivements page on AIUK,

and have you seen Uukhas list of achivements with thier deep hook design?
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  #34  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

This is advertising copy:

"Formula Carbon F7 Limbs

"The limbs that propelled Oh, Jin-Hyek to the top step of the London 2012 Podium. The Formula Carbon F7 features Triaxial Carbon Technology, lower mass weight, higher speed, Quad Core Technology, incredible durability and consistency over millions of shot cycles. Available with either Hoyt's Syntactic Foam Core or traditional laminated hard rock maple cores, the Formula Carbon F7 is the proven podium leader."

(From http://www.hoytrecurve.com/recurve_b...urve_limbs.php)

Sid publishes actual data, and is very passionate about what he does. You won't get a Hoyt or W&W rep revealing as much about the materials in their limbs. They prefer to influence you with copy, advertising and sponsoring top archers to reinforce the illogical idea that because Brady shoots a bow it must be the best in the world.

If I didn't like the feel of Border limbs, I wouldn't shoot them. I do, so I do. If you don't, you don't.

John Magera doesn't, as he's publicly stated he likes a little stack at full draw. Doesn't mean the limbs he shoots are better or more efficient than any others; just means they suit him better.

Shoot what suits you, but don't dismiss the opinions of others just because the maths don't appeal to you. The best defence of any bow choice is simply "I like shooting this, so there."

Good shooting
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  #35  
Old 03-11-2013, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Jack,

As the 1988 Head US Olympic Cycling Coach and the former Executive Director of US Badminton at the 1992 Barcelona Games, I can guarantee you that the top Olympic archers are not shooting production limbs. They are one-off specials made to their specific needs and specifications that look externally like the production items. This is standard practice for both competition and corporate marketing at that level.

Mark Hodges
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  #36  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

this is now NOT relevant to W&Ws current model range but just to show you Jack.

We have been pushing materials and technology for quite some time now.

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  #37  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdAstraAiroh View Post
Jack,

As the 1988 Head US Olympic Cycling Coach and the former Executive Director of US Badminton at the 1992 Barcelona Games, I can guarantee you that the top Olympic archers are not shooting production limbs. They are one-off specials made to their specific needs and specifications that look externally like the production items. This is standard practice for both competition and corporate marketing at that level.

Mark Hodges
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  #38  
Old 03-11-2013, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Jack,

In previous PM communications with you, I know you value personal "proof" found through your own experimentation. I have no dog in this fight other than improving my personal archery performance. I have advanced degrees in Biomechanics and Exercise Physiology and like to test out things to my satisfaction, as well.

I have found that my best personal data for how a limb performs for me is best proven with an analysis of my shooting results doing a great many American 900 rounds with a 122cm target. 60 yards with fingers at the nock, with a small crawl at 50 yards and a sort of medium crawl at 40 yards. Here are my findings after 18 random rounds with each limb set mounted on the same Best Moon riser using fully tuned 7 gpp arrows over the last few months shooting equally, both outdoors and at a university indoor facility.

Sky Carbon: Average score: 722 Best Score: 742
Dryad ACS-RC: Average score: 732 Best Score: 747
Border Hex6H BB2: Average score: 749 Best Score: 768

Previously I posted my results when these three limbs were tested for speed using a quality chronograph.

Sky Carbon: 203.9 Feet Per Second
Dryad ACS-RC: 211.8 Feet Per Second
Border Hex6H BB2: 215.2 Feet Per Second

http://www.tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36976

As I get some additional time during Spring Break, I will post some additional personal observations and test results.

Mark

Last edited by AdAstraAiroh; 03-11-2013 at 07:43 AM.
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  #39  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdAstraAiroh View Post
Jack,

As the 1988 Head US Olympic Cycling Coach and the former Executive Director of US Badminton at the 1992 Barcelona Games, I can guarantee you that the top Olympic archers are not shooting production limbs. They are one-off specials made to their specific needs and specifications that look externally like the production items. This is standard practice for both competition and corporate marketing at that level.

Mark Hodges
Over the years we have heard several reports coming from several sources.

2 cases were here in the UK, and one from France.

Not entirely sure if these were sour grapes from the individual.
but they were shooting our limbs.
These people mentioned the same kind of peer pressure applied from governing body level.
"you would get further in the team if you shot different kit"
"i could see you getting a squad place if you didnt shoot those limbs"


now, my paranoia spells this into two different areas.
in years gone buy, do National Goverening bodies recieve moneys from FITA?
Does FITA get funding from Corporations?
Does FITA have links to Easton and Hoyt?
http://www.olympic.org/mr-james-l-easton

and if so, do you think that FITA is then impartial and representing archery?

The question arises in my head, do these countries have strong holdings in Field archery. for example Longbows. bow types that easton Hoyt dont make.

Id Like to ask Steve why he shoots for Estonia this question about his international shooting.


this is my small companies take on why you dont see small manufacturers in the Olympics.
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  #40  
Old 03-11-2013, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Short limbs and 27" riser

I've had two GB squad archers (one a two-time Olympian) tell me they thought Border kit was fantastic. One in fact said he used to shoot them as a junior and would happily shoot Border limbs again if his main sponsor would let him.

Again, just hearsay.

Edit: I should add that most top archers I've ever been lucky enough to chat to have the opinion that provided you like the kit you are shooting, there's nothing much wrong with picking any brand.

Last edited by JohnK; 03-11-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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