TradTalk Forums  

Site Sponsors
Log in
User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!
Patron Membership
Board Menu
» Help
Go Back   TradTalk Forums > Main Category > TradTalk Main Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:28 AM
steve morley's Avatar
steve morley steve morley is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 4,085
Thanks: 178
Thanked 1,291 Times in 707 Posts
steve morley is on a distinguished road
Default Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Both methods work but mentally they're approached from very differnt directions, this isn't about what is better but just to highlight those differences so newer Archers may choose a method that best suits their pesonal mental makeup, so for starters some extracts from KSL Best method, it talks about sights but this also applies to Gap shooting also.


"Successful archers “feel” their shots more than aim them. The aiming and expansion phase of the shot sequence should be a very short interval of time and should be subconscious rather than conscious."

"The aiming must only start after the transfer and holding phase is reached. Beginning to aim too early will distract the archer from the feel of the shot and reduce
consistency."

"During the aiming phase the archer should de-emphasize aiming and focus on the internal process of the shot."



Instinctive aiming is about continued conscious focus on the spot you want to hit and letting the shot sequence run in the subconscious, Gap and sights is the other way around as focus is on the shot sequence and aim is just another stage in the sequence and feels more of a subconscious act than conscious one.

One difficult aspect, specially in Field shooting where we have many varied distances is being able to settle into anchor having the aim pretty much already on the Gap, if your not and have to adjust it will distract you from the subconscious part of the aim and mess up the shot.

Both approaches obviously work, how well I think really depends on the individual, I shot instinct very well for around 5 years (4 National titles) and 2001 I ran into some target panic issues, I found changing to Gap help me regain control again, I'm still able to shoot instinctively but now feel more relaxed with Gap shooting as my aim doesn't really come into play untill I have my back tension anchor already in place.

Something to consider when selecting what aiming method might be best suited to you
Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to steve morley For This Useful Post:
aroadik (04-16-2012), blue_ridge (04-16-2012), Cyrille (04-16-2012), jerbearyukon (04-16-2012), longbowguy (04-16-2012), mick uk (04-16-2012), Sam Dunham (04-16-2012), workaholic (04-19-2012)
Remove Ads
  #2  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:10 AM
fentiger fentiger is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 1,285
Thanks: 389
Thanked 88 Times in 71 Posts
fentiger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Started gap about 1 month ago also with fingers.

An unexpected benefit has been that my peep/release shooting has really really improved at 60yds!

Can only assume that the confidence gained from actually hitting something fingers/barebow has enabled me to quit subconsciously? concentrating on pins and pay more attention to the complete shot sequence.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to fentiger For This Useful Post:
field point (04-19-2012)
  #3  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:30 AM
TradArcher TradArcher is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,255
Thanks: 74
Thanked 1,219 Times in 975 Posts
TradArcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

"The aiming must only start after the transfer and holding phase is reached. Beginning to aim too early will distract the archer from the feel of the shot and reduce
consistency."

"During the aiming phase the archer should de-emphasize aiming and focus on the internal process of the shot."

I thought that this would be a well discussed topic. I would certainly enjoy some conversation regarding the two points I've copied.... Steve???

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-16-2012, 10:03 AM
Grantmac Grantmac is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Whidbey Island, WA/Duncan, BC, Canada
Posts: 2,645
Thanks: 377
Thanked 970 Times in 679 Posts
Grantmac is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

I've shot my very best scores when the aiming was de-emphasized. When I find myself trying to aim to closely is when the TP starts to come back in.
Now that I'm playing with SWing I find that holding directly on the intended POI is VERY mentally exhausting. I'm trying to set-up the bow to how a 3-4" gap to make things feel less twitchy. Same deal with my BB compound for indoor, bottom of the bull.
I'd like to build the mental toughness to hold directly on the bull while still putting 90% of the focus on the shot.

-Grant
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-16-2012, 10:21 AM
steve morley's Avatar
steve morley steve morley is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 4,085
Thanks: 178
Thanked 1,291 Times in 707 Posts
steve morley is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Quote:
Originally Posted by TradArcher View Post
I thought that this would be a well discussed topic. I would certainly enjoy some conversation regarding the two points I've copied.... Steve???

Tom
When I setup, its to make sure I'm on my gap at whatever distance I'm shooting, when I draw I do a visual check of draw length till I get to anchor and transfer load to Scapula after this I'm then focused on aiming, really my Gap is more like just combining vertical and Horizontal alignment, an awareness of the gap rather than a visual aim if I try an aim during the draw I tend to have a strong desire to release before I fully engaged back tension, I would get to anchor but wasn't really holding with back tension and release would be poor due to remaining tension in arms.

It all stems from target panic issues in 2001, it was my way of dealing with the problem, I felt more comfortable shifting my focus from intense conscious aiming to running my prime focus on my shot sequence, trusting and letting the aim take care of itself. It wasn't till I read up on target form did I understand this was an accepted method of shooting, just dumb luck I guess lol

Last edited by steve morley; 04-16-2012 at 10:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-16-2012, 10:40 AM
jerbearyukon's Avatar
jerbearyukon jerbearyukon is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Whitehorse Yukon
Posts: 5,947
Thanks: 1,929
Thanked 1,079 Times in 745 Posts
jerbearyukon is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Maybe somebody could help me if and when I get to the world IBO's AFTER the tourney....I would like to try the gap method, but I am reluctant to do it right now with hunting season so close.

I know it would probably help my accuracy.....jer
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-16-2012, 11:53 AM
fentiger fentiger is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: CA
Posts: 1,285
Thanks: 389
Thanked 88 Times in 71 Posts
fentiger is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Regarding pre-aim, do Giuseppe Seimandi and some other top m/f italians pre aim?

They stop the draw, then [aim?] finish the draw but the bow hardly moves?

Or are they so good that the bow is instinctively that close without aiming?

Somebody else wrote that one should start aiming as soon as the draw starts?

Is the secret balancing ALL of the shot components consistently not a specific style/form?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:41 PM
Matt_Potter's Avatar
Matt_Potter Matt_Potter is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Montana
Posts: 6,725
Thanks: 442
Thanked 2,551 Times in 1,336 Posts
Matt_Potter is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Fent

When I "gap" shoot I have 3 gaps near-medium-and far. I set the gap at my predraw so that once I am at anchor and the little guy in my head takes over no big adjustments need to be made.

Seimandi is stringwalking and he absolutely is pre-aiming (and so very very well I might add)

Matt
__________________
I'm not "TRAD" - I am an archer that happens to shoot a recurve.

Rod Jenkins' Clinics - the best money you will spend on archery.


www.kingfisherflyshop.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Seven Arrows's Avatar
Seven Arrows Seven Arrows is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Oregon, central coast
Posts: 3,477
Thanks: 58
Thanked 601 Times in 364 Posts
Seven Arrows is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

It doesn't matter how you aim, if your form is lacking you will miss the mark.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Seven Arrows For This Useful Post:
Sam Dunham (04-16-2012)
  #10  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:29 PM
TradArcher TradArcher is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,255
Thanks: 74
Thanked 1,219 Times in 975 Posts
TradArcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven Arrows View Post
It doesn't matter how you aim, if your form is lacking you will miss the mark.
It doesn't sound like there's much to disagree with there ....but.... ( ) Here's an example of what I'm offering... Consider what most archers are "hyper" about, Release. Now consider a solid bow arm. I would invite anyone to experiment with a comparison of the two (with regard to form) and I strongly suspect that in a choice between the two mentioned, considerable variation in "release can occur without much negative result, when combined with a strong/solid bow arm.... Just a little food for thought [w/caviat: this will apply for relatively short to moderate yardage... not extended, like 50+ to 80yds]

Grantmac's response surprises me a bit. My initial thoughts are that the potential for mentally jumping between "form and aiming" may be a cause for TP rather than a cure. Certainly, many many an archer HAS developed TP by mentally investing in "release" alternatively with "aim" and never deciding which to stay with.

Steve, My first question is: "Once the proper picture/aim/gap etc is established (assumedly with primary focus/vision), on a particular point/spot... is the principal "focus" on form now a "mental" thing with pinpoint visual focus still maintained? Thanks for your response.

Tom
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:45 PM
TradArcher TradArcher is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,255
Thanks: 74
Thanked 1,219 Times in 975 Posts
TradArcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

"The method I have always used for this is as follows:

1 -Before I draw the bow, I tell myself (Out Load) that I am not letting this arrow go and I am just aiming!!!
2- Draw, anchor, come up to my aiming point -- AND JUST HOLD and AIM !!!! All the while concentrating on good Back tension and keeping the aim as smooth and still as possible.
3- AIM SOME MORE!!! I aim as long as possible until the point of the arrow for instance( or dot/Pin) is moving too much and then .....
4 -I LET DOWN. Very important... I have just let the conscious brain out control the subconscious urge to just let the arrow fly.
5 -Take the arrow of the string and put it back in my quiver...
6- REPEAT steps 1-5... , REPEAT, REPEAT
7 After 10 successful aiming drills in a row, you can tell yourself (out Load) I am shooting this one in the X!. Really focus on the aiming drill just practiced and then allow the release to happen. " ~ Post #1 from Barebow and Fingers thread

It would seem that a more than qualified archer (see post #1 from thread) has a fine exercise that makes use of aiming in a more "primary" situation....

Submitted for the sake of conversation.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TradArcher For This Useful Post:
Sam Dunham (04-16-2012)
  #12  
Old 04-16-2012, 02:50 PM
Seven Arrows's Avatar
Seven Arrows Seven Arrows is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Oregon, central coast
Posts: 3,477
Thanks: 58
Thanked 601 Times in 364 Posts
Seven Arrows is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Let's compare it to a ballerina.
Dancing requires control of ones mind and body.
During the learning stage, time is spent perfecting the steps and the transitions linking them, plus conditioning and toning the requisite muscles.
But, when it comes time to perform the dance, the artistic performance will suffer if the dancer has to think about any specific aspect.
It's no different with archery. At tourney time or the moment of the hunting shot it needs to just happen.

You will not shoot well while the mind is dissecting.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:14 PM
TradArcher TradArcher is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,255
Thanks: 74
Thanked 1,219 Times in 975 Posts
TradArcher is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

"You will not shoot well while the mind is dissecting."

There may be truer words in archery... but I don't know them!


Tom
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:44 PM
steve morley's Avatar
steve morley steve morley is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
Posts: 4,085
Thanks: 178
Thanked 1,291 Times in 707 Posts
steve morley is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Quote:
Originally Posted by fentiger View Post
Regarding pre-aim, do Giuseppe Seimandi and some other top m/f italians pre aim?

They stop the draw, then [aim?] finish the draw but the bow hardly moves?

Or are they so good that the bow is instinctively that close without aiming?

Somebody else wrote that one should start aiming as soon as the draw starts?

Is the secret balancing ALL of the shot components consistently not a specific style/form?
The setup is know and held at pre-draw for a particular distance and once the Archer reaches Anchor any adjustment is so minor most wont pick it up any visual movement (for the archer also), if you have to make a big adjustment to the Gap, it then comes to the forefront of the conscious mind and the shot will be average at best, if you do get setup, anchor and transfer of load right the whole aim can be left alone for the subconscious to run and this gives the best results. If youre jumping from conscious to subconscious aim it will mess the shot, the setup is obviously conscious and from that moment on any conscious input to aim would be if something wasn't feeling quite right.

I hope this answers your question also Tom,

Last edited by steve morley; 04-16-2012 at 06:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to steve morley For This Useful Post:
fentiger (04-16-2012)
  #15  
Old 04-16-2012, 07:26 PM
longbowguy longbowguy is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 1,461
Thanks: 200
Thanked 378 Times in 292 Posts
longbowguy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Gap/sights aming and Instinctive aiming

Excellent post!

Two small reactions to questions raised. Aiming during the draw is a good method for fast dynamic shooting whether in hunting, exhibitions, stunts, on movers and flyers. Howard Hill was the master of it. But he made clear that target shooting is a different game, and we are talking target archery here.

Second, pre-aiming with the bow arm extended, is the norm among target archers. But pre-aiming can be done in the imagination, with the bow arm down, for economy of effort. After pre-aiming you can swing up to the sight picture drawing as you swing. Dynamic archery, Howard Hill, again. But I have found it useful in teaching youths and women, where strength and endurance are factors. And I have adopted it myself, where advancing age is a factor. In long events, especially multiday ones, many archers degrade in the late stages. I try to use economy of effort throughout so I can gain on the field on the later targets.

I'm strong to the finach, cause I eats me spinach. - Popeye the Sailor Man
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to longbowguy For This Useful Post:
Avid Archer (04-18-2012), targets3d (04-16-2012)
Reply

Tags
aiming, aming, gap or sights, instinctive


Search tags for this page
archery gap aiming
,
gap shooting archery technique
,
howard hill gap method
,

instinctive aiming method

,
instinctive aiming problems
Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:29 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
PBCustom Strings 2004