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  #1  
Old 03-19-2017, 07:29 AM
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Question VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I just got in a dozen .500 spine VAP V1's with Flex-Fletch 225's and 120/130/140gr Tophat break-off target points....



weight with 140gr point inserted plus 3 vanes...



and while I'm fairly certain I already know how I'm going to configure them?...I'd like to hear some pro/con opinions if I'm on the right track here?...or not.

Things to take into consideration...

A. These are intended for field use only off my Tempest BB rig equipped with Hex7 limbs..."Shorts"...making a 66"/38# SR rig.

B. I'll be Gapping not SW'ing.

Now it appears I have 2 options here...I can either leave them at their full length of 31" and run 120gr points or?...lop 1/2" off and run the full 140gr point weight and while a 20gr difference doesn't seem like much?...at full weight they will represent a 350gr/9.21gpp arrow or at 330grs?...they will represent a 8.68gpp arrow where my conundrum is...

While running them 1/2" shortened with 140gr points?....they seem to tame these Hex7 shorts by a noticeable level making a smoother shooting rig but?...

What I don't know is how badly this might impact long distance trajectory on say a 900rd.

Thoughts?...Thanks!
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Old 03-19-2017, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

The 120 should be plenty.

Throw some fletches on your testers and see what the POD is, 45 is ideal.


Edit: I don't like using any VAP points with the break off sections removed. I'd rather drop to the 110.
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Last edited by Grantmac; 03-19-2017 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 11:33 AM
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Talking Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I would say no heaver than 120's. I would probably start with 100gr pts. There's a chance that 500 spine may be to stiff. When I shot them I shot 600 spine cut @ 29" @ 42 lbs with 80 gr pts with 2.75 X Vanes. They flu great when I did what I was suppose to.

Mike
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:38 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Unfortunately, this is one of those things where you're going to have to experiment a little.
I shoot those arrows for field, and they're a good choice, but my parameters will be different than yours. What I would do, would be to start with the full shaft and the heaviest point, trim, shoot again, add heavier, lighter, etc. If you're going to shoot NFAA field in the "Traditional" style, that rules out SW, so you'll have to find a point on distance and gap from there. The bulk of the points on a field round are between 20 and 60 yards, so that's what I concern myself with to start to set up a kit for field. As was suggested a point on around 45 yards(wish I could get that!) would be good.

Having said all that, I think you'll find a point weight in the 100-120 range optimal, but then again, maybe not. That's what the experimentation will tell you. No real shortcuts here.

By the way, shooting NFAA field "Traditional" style in the southeast is a pretty lonely proposition, but you probably already knew that.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Thanks Folks!

Well as they say?...the proofs in the pudding...whatever the heck that means! LOL!

So?...what I did was slipped a 140gr point in the 30 1/2" VAP bare shaft and stuck what turned out to be a 111gr point (borrowed from a donor shaft..1gr of hot melt?) in the full length 31" bare shaft...both .500 spine...where oddly enough the full length shaft with the 111gr point weighed 308grs and the 30 1/2" shaft with the 140gr point weighed right at 330grs and took to shooting...

The Green Nocked Arrow: 140gr Point-30 1/2"-330gr

The Yellow Nocked Arrow: 111gr Point-31"-308gr





Obviously the 140gr point arrow was coming out a touch weak and nock high (as one might expect) while the 111gr pointed arrow was a bullet.

Now my only goal here was to see if the heavier point might settle and quiet the bow to any noticeable degree but I also realized that unless I used 2 different nock heights?...it wouldn't be a fair test of the arrow with the heavier point flying nock high and slightly weak so I adapted my execution to an extremely high wrist with a slightly less DL and was able to get this...




and with the spig ZT rest vibrating like somebody duct taped a sex toy too my bow?..my poor hearing couldn't tell a difference....so I had the wife come out and listen and according to her?...the heavier arrow resulted in a touch louder bow.

Too boot?...it wasn't hard for me to tell that with about 5"s of shaft hanging out beyond the wire rest?...the lighter point seemed a more forgiving arrow where the heavier point would amplify the least little offense on my part dancing on the wire rest.

Over the chrono?...only about 5fps separated the two with the 140gr/330gr/8.7gpp arrow crossing the beams at 204-206fps and the 111gr/308gr/8.1gpp arrow doing 209-211fps.

Upshot?...I'm leaving them full length and breaking the points down to 120grs...I figure the 3X2.25 Flex-Fletching will pick up the 9gr dif.

Thanks for the input...Bill.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Not what I would have expected. More point weight on equally well tuned arrows is typically more forgiving for me.
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:32 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by moog5050 View Post
Not what I would have expected. More point weight on equally well tuned arrows is typically more forgiving for me.
Same here moog...which is why the 30" .400 spine arrows for my shot off the shelf CH have 200gr screw-ins as I've been a fan of high FOC for such but?...

I'm stepping into a different world here where I'm finding that heavier point weights have a downside when what's supporting your arrow is a long piece of wire and you have 5"s of shaft hanging out beyond it...and this is where with heavy points?...that wire rest begins acting more like a trampoline!
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Old 03-19-2017, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I am one of those idiots and haven't shot off a rest in a long time. That makes sense though.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

You will find the broken 120 will tune a lot weaker than the full length 110.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Sometimes adding more pt weight in an effort to try and weaken the spine of an arrow that's a little to stiff has the opposite effect. I know from my own experience. I don't pay to much attention to gpm. If I was going to look at anything it would be FOC balance. Haven't used it in a while. But you should be able to find a calculator on the web some where.
Found a calculator @ archery calculator.com
Just checked one of my VAP's it is from the throat of the nock to the end of the shaft was 28.25 with and 80 gr pt. The FOC was 11.06 percent
My CXL 150 at 33" with a 100 gr pt has a 12.12 percent FOC
Knowing this when I get a good flying arrow and check it will more than likely have nearly the same FOC. It gives me a measurable base line to use for any arrow I try.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinkster View Post
Same here moog...which is why the 30" .400 spine arrows for my shot off the shelf CH have 200gr screw-ins as I've been a fan of high FOC for such but?...

I'm stepping into a different world here where I'm finding that heavier point weights have a downside when what's supporting your arrow is a long piece of wire and you have 5"s of shaft hanging out beyond it...and this is where with heavy points?...that wire rest begins acting more like a trampoline!

Last edited by Wilson; 03-19-2017 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I love the VAP's. I've been able to shoot some configuration of them in either 600 or 800 spine from 35-39lbs. I've shot really nice scores with the v6's but plan on switching to the v1's this spring.

What Grant and Wilson are saying I've found to be true. The length of the shank really means a lot when trying to get these to tune. Definitely keep that in mind.

I've been shooting the 800's cut to 29" with 60 grain points out of 37@29 and change. This gets me about 215fps and point on at 60 yards. This year I'm going to tailor my setup for USA Archery events so I only need a 50m point on. I'm hoping to be able to add some point weight. So I'll stick with 37lbs and maybe cut my shafts a bit, I don't have much I can cut with my draw length where it is, and go to the 80 grain points. Or switch to 39lbs and 600's with 80 or 90 grain points and find the correct shaft length. This should keep me over 200fps and point on around 50m.

I'll be happy when the tuning is done. It's not my favorite, I like pulling the string back and knowing where the arrow is gonna go.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Thanks so much folks!

So I guess I'll just lay it out blow by blow style here...

I got a lot done today..the first thing being finishing fletching up my arrows for the CH with their 3X4" Feathers so I could clear the way to reset my bitz to start running flex-fletch vanes on these V1's and got that all wrapped up.


Then the testing I've already posted and just before leaving for my daughters house for dinner?....

I can't tell you all how amazed I was at the weight accuracy of the Tophat break-offs...of the 11 points?...8 broke off cleanly at 120grs even...3 snapped a little heavy at 122grs...(yes all 3)...where just a few passes of the file had them at 120grs even as well and this is what a 140gr point broke off too 120grs looks like against a 110gr point with all it's segments still intact and it's obvious which is which...



I left them all soak in alcohol while I went too my daughters for dinner and didn't get back until 7:15pm which is when I cleaned out all the ends of the bare shafts and installed the now clean 120gr points and then?...I just couldn't resist shooting them or at least trying to.

There was maybe 5 minutes of dusk left before flat out nightfall and at 15yds...and so dark out I was struggling to see to get my arrows nocked on the string?...I shot'em all just ripping them off in a race against night and got this while barely being able to see the target or the arrows on my bow...



now it looks like a couple/few might be in there weak but there's really no way of telling...could've been me or?....most likely my shot out core media that's more like shooting into beef stew it's so chunked out but the lions share of bare shafts appeared to be straight in shots.

What was more significant to me (since it was so dark I couldn't see my arrows fly) was how my bow felt at the shot...I could tell the few I rushed and flubbed VS my good shots where the bow felt and responded great.

IOW's?...I'm real pleased by what I felt this evening...maybe tomorrow night I have enough time after work to actually fletch a couple up and do some real testing.

Thanks for your hlp here folks and yes...I know what you all mean about shank length VS point weight....I would imagine in some cases it's just about a wash where they cancel each other out except for mass, velocity and feel.

Thanks again and L8R, Bill.
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Old 03-19-2017, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I must have had an older version of the points. Shank length was the same between them and head size was different, weird.

In any case carry on sir!
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

I realize you can get away with it on some setups but why would you use veins on a traditional bow. It has to hit the riser at some point
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: VAP Configs...want input from the pros please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerseyboy View Post
I realize you can get away with it on some setups but why would you use veins on a traditional bow. It has to hit the riser at some point
Oh boy and rut-ro!

Think I'll let someone else with more tact and class than myself answer that one.
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