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8K views 49 replies 16 participants last post by  DDD 
#1 ·
First associated the letter "J" with a "Rotational Draw"....cause you see a "J" is just fine right up until I get to the little hook on the end there where my string hand movement creeps slightly forward against the back of my jaw...which in turn causes me to lose ALL Back Tension...which again in turn?...causes me to start fishing for it to get the Back Tension...uhem..."back".....again....which in turns begats my "sawing wood" motion...which in turn...more often times than not?....results in what might best be described as a...."Mini-Snap-Shot" :(

So last night I was chuckling to myself as I tried to come up with a smoother, stronger, cleaner draw that didn't result in any hooking forward motion thereby yielding in my loss of Back Tension...which came to me in the form of what might best be described as a..."Reverse L Draw"...which I rapidly saw "AND FELT" the benefits of.

and oddly enough?...this evening I recieved a PM from a forum member who's desperately been trying to bust open my thick head in the past and in a short volley of PM's did something we rarely do....we TOTALLY agreed! LOL!

Now I'm not even close to having mastered this entirely yet (let alone ingraining it)...and this is just a real off-the-cuff (or should I say "Ceiling Fan" LOL!) vid of me attempting to explain, show and demonstrate which it is I speak of...so feel free to speak or critic freely...I'm all ears at the moment but can readily feel where this could easily become a game changer for me and maybe others might benefit from this minor alphabetical change of mindset.....hope you enjoy and L8R, Bill.

 
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#2 ·
Hello All
Jinks. if you have some spare time try this draw be it release or tab.

1.Hook the tab up to the bow string.

2. Turned your tab hand fingers knuckles to point at 10:O-clock

3. Draw back and slightly down

4.Now bring your tab hand up and split your jaw bone with your thumb and index finger. And raise your elbow.
The web of the tab hand is behind the jaw bone. Release hand slightly can be turned up. [ Later
 
#4 ·
I am going to reinterate the clicker. If you are not performing the J draw properly, you will pull through the clicker before you get to anchor. This is an overdraw. Once you get to anchor, if you are not in the right position you will struggle to pull through. I was practicing with my clicker earlier tonight and am about to go out a practice some more. After a couple of sessions, I am starting to consistently draw onto the point, which makes expansion and release very easy. This is after investing a couple of months into clicker work last summer, and returning to it about a week ago. There is still no guarantee that you are getting into your back. You need to work on making sure you are getting the back tension. I had my son put his finger on my scapula and tell me how much I was moving his finger while I practiced approaches for engaging my back. I am using a Kisik Lee stretch band that allows you to set your draw length (point where the band quits stretching). I start with the band and then try to duplicate it with a light bow. Eventually, I will bridge back to my competition bow. The main thing is that you need to commit to whatever you are going to try. There a no quick fixes unless you are extraordinarily talented.
 
#5 ·
I need to add that if you pull through the clicker on the way to full draw, you will be relaxing the back muscles as you complete your path to anchor (result of overdraw). That means your back muscles are going in the wrong direction and will need to be re-engaged in order to expand to release.
 
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#6 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hello
With a clicked I get a bad taste.
One day you walk to the line. You have had your Wheaties and felt like you can lick the world.
Next shoot you walk to the line. And maybe the night before you ate to many pieces of pizza. Or was out with the boys.

========================
The clicker on first shoot went off like clock work. On second shoot you now are fighting it to go off.

First 6 targets your groups ae nice and tight. 2nd 6 spread out like hen
feathers.

Saw this at are range. He was a out town pro. I aproached him at break..
Said got something you might try after the shoot. He said lets here it.
now. I suggested to him to move his clicker back about 1/8 inch. And will tighten up the groups. ha went on to win the shoot.

For me I copied Vic Burger way. I used a mirror. And by doing so.Never become a rhythm shooter. [ Later

Ps.a click from a lighter will bring on a false release from a tense archer. [ Smile Try it U will see. [ Later
 
#11 ·
Hello
With a clicked I get a bad taste.
One day you walk to the line. You have had your Wheaties and felt like you can lick the world.
Next shoot you walk to the line. And maybe the night before you ate to many pieces of pizza. Or was out with the boys.

========================
The clicker on first shoot went off like clock work. On second shoot you now are fighting it to go off.

First 6 targets your groups ae nice and tight. 2nd 6 spread out like hen
feathers.

Saw this at are range. He was a out town pro. I reproached him at break..
Said got something you might try after the shoot. He said lets here it.
now. I suggested to him to move his clicker back about 1/8 inch. And will tighten up the groups. ha went on to win the shoot.

For me I copied Vic Burger way. I used a mirror. And by doing so.Never become a rhythm shooter. [ Later

Ps.a click from a lighter will bring on a false release from a tense archer. [ Smile Try it U will see. [ Later
A clicker is certainly not "easy" to shoot. It takes time and practice, BUT if you learn to shoot it then you will certainly have an advantage. Tim Strickland once told me that a clicker gives you more of an advantage than string walking and being able to shoot point on. It's not easy to master but it's powerful once you do.
 
#9 ·
Cool, I would like to see a picture. Are you able to shoot the arrow, or are you just drawing to the playing card?

That sounds like a good solution if you are concerned about damaging the bow by mounting a clickety click or cricket clicker. This might work for Jinx.

P.S. for longbow practice I took my old Samick SLB and put a clickety click on it. I use it as a form bow. It is the same draw weight as my Falco Trophy Carbon (see Avatar) that I use for competition when shooting the longbow class.
 
#10 ·
I am left to assume you are referring to me since I have the video where I talk about the J draw. Folks above have clearly stated what you are doing wrong. You are over drawing and then coming back. Instead of trying to redefine the procedure, try to perfect the procedure. As they said the clicking will keep you from pulling through...or rather tell you when you've pulled past where you should, but if you pull to the clicker then go straight into your face again you're circumnavigating the correct procedure. You need to teach your body to draw to anchor. The J just helps you to engage your back front he start of the draw and keep the tension on on the back the entire time.
 
#12 ·
Jimmy...first things first?...Thank you for your service...welcome back...nice to see you posting again and please know that you, your skill set and your video's have always served as an inspiration to me...now that said?....

Your assumption is wrong as while I've heard droves of folks speak of the "J-Rotational Draw"...(and here's a link that popped up first on a casual search of many examples where it's being openly discussed)...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1831536

and while I full well knew you did in fact produce a video of the proper execution and explanation of the J-Rotational Draw?...I had no clue that you were the inventor...but if you are staking claim to such?....then yes...I guess I am.

Because I'm of the opinion that while the "J-Rotational" deal might be a great tool for coaching coaches?...it didn't meld well at all with my body/mind and I found that a straight back drawing motion seems to work best for me.

Sorry you took offense...welcome back and Happy Shooting, Bill.
 
#13 ·
Bill - I'm not back - still in Afghanistan, just checking it. I certainly don't stake claim to "inventing the idea" I don't recall every hearing it anywhere, so maybe several people arrived at the same conclusion.

I'll leave it alone. I think where you and I diverge is that I figure if thousands of archers over decades and decades have narrowed down what makes for the most consistent way of shooting then it's up to me to find a way to capitalizing on the wisdom of their work. Thus I have tried to master those techniques - never have but continue to try. You seem to be more nonconventional in your approach to archery. Hope you don't take offense to that. Just an observation.

I don't buy into the idea that, "everyone just has to find what works for them." You can get away with varying some things, but optimal success comes from consistency and optimal consistency comes from proven shooting form.

I certainly didn't take offense to your post. I was just owning up to the video I produced that uses the J rotational draw.
 
#14 ·
Thanks Jimmy...as usual you're a very "stand-up" kind of guy and we've come to expect nothing less.

And while our approach may be different?...doesn't mean we have to have differences...you certainly have far more time, work and effort logged into what you've accomplished...but I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here as there's always more ways than one to skin a cat...that said?...there are also some very well known and extremely respected coaches who champion the "Straight Back Draw" with a preset and locked bow arm...(as opposed to the J-Rotational Draw)...citing such things as...

1. It's the shortest distance from point "A" too anchor.

2. Results in far less overall bow movement (a desirable feature when live game is your target)

but most importantly for me?...

3. Seems to be the most effective drawing motion when it comes to...

Maintaining "MY" Back Tension.

and I personally find that last one to be extremely true...for me...then again?...maybe the reason the J-Rotational doesn't seem to work out very well for me at all while it works well for many others?...is because my right shoulder was crushed in a sport bike accident about 15 years ago...totalled a Kawi ZRX into the side of a minivan that pulled out in front of me...no broken bones but enough soft tissue damage to warrant several months of pain meds and the shoulder hasn't been the same since...the good news?...tomorrow?..I'll have 4 years Clean & Sober again! LOL!

Now...Lay low, keep your head down and focus on what you're doing there so we can see you back here again and hopefully soon! L8R, Bill.
 
#19 ·
there are also some very well known and extremely respected coaches who champion the "Straight Back Draw" with a preset and locked bow arm..
Who precisely?

-Grant
 
#15 ·
The rotational draw can vary, depending on how much pretension you put on the string, or dont put on the string. If you note, a lot of guys using it do a short predraw, then pause. This all gets engrained and your body will learn to hit anchor over time without drawing to far back, then creeping forward to anchor. I agree a clicker will show this, you cannot trick it. Also keep in mind that regardless of your physical condition, going to a rotational draw is using different muscles then you likely were using and for that reason your not conditioned to doing it right. You will induce drawing with your arm and that adds to over drawing. This is another reason so many drop weight to "get it right". Another thing to consider is your likely overthinking the movement of the "J" Jinks.
Now where many will agree or disagree, I dont buy into maintaning or loosing back tension. Let me clarify that. At full draw and on target, if you "think" about pulling through the shot and get that arrow to come back, even if slightly, you are engaging your back muscles to do that. Doing that you will improve your accuracy, release, and focus on the right things.
Good to see you posting again Jinks.
 
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#16 ·
Also wasnt able to see your video, but can now. Your using LOTS of arm to finish your draw, watch your shoulder movement, or lack of when you do your L draw Jinks. Let me give you some advice, forget about shapes of draws, just work on shooting the bow and keeping it fun. I think the proper draw will just come to you. Ive been down this road, its frustrating and gets you thinking about the wrong things during your shot.
 
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#17 ·
Kenn...I just took a several month break from form work and just played with instinctive/snap...but I'm feeling stronger and more relaxed now so I feel like I'm ready to get back to business again...but up front here?...I feel I'm going to need a strong focus placed upon the process...at least until I get the new me up and running. LOL!

So...step by step...aspect by aspect...sifting through the bazillion opinions that work well for others and finding what exactly works best for me...both physically and mentally...and sticking with it.
 
#25 ·
Well with a variety of opinions, information and technics?....and while I appreciate the help?...I've made a few command decisions here which is limited to one thing...

Focusing On My Draw Coming Directly Too Solid Anchor...which will be nothing like the honorable Mrs. Hyuns...as my bow hand will not start out raised above my shoulder (with an emphasis on me keeping that bow arm shoulder low) and will come up on target and not down into it.

Concentration will be spent on the key elements of...

1. Grip Pressure

2. Keeping string hand forearm relaxed.

3. Coming straight back to solid anchor and...

who cares what letter shape my elbow makes as long as I looking at it as the elbow being drawn back and not the string hand.

Yep...that's what I'm rolling with and going out to practice right now...with one solid anchor and let down for every arrow loosed.

Thanks again, Bill.
 
#34 ·
That sound great.

My suggestion was not intended on you changing the things you don't care to change. Again if you practice with a stretch band and pulling with the elbow your draw will become natural to anchor. The goal here is maintaining back thru the shot. I too have a bad shoulder. So I worked the stretch ban until I now can feel relaxed. Just remember you champion days when you can hold with a confidence thought. The doctor will tell you that soft tissue damage has to be broke down and rebuilt over and over,,, in time it will become strong.

That all its about.
Dan
 
#26 ·
The J draw is pretty much what is taught and used by FITA shooters. It may not be branded as such, but it is what was taught to me in my quest to learn the Kisik Lee KSL method.

Before you abandon well established methods, you need to put more than a trivial effort into learning the methods. Without that, you will continue to change every weekend, hoping that magic will occur.

I have spent five years relearning how to shoot. It has taken a lot of time and effort, all of which has been enjoyable to me. But, even after five years of this pursuit, I still do not feel I am qualified to produce and post form videos, let alone almost daily.
 
#27 ·
The J draw is pretty much what is taught and used by FITA shooters. It may not be branded as such, but it is what was taught to me in my quest to learn the Kisik Lee KSL method.

Before you abandon well established methods, you need to put more than a trivial effort into learning the methods. Without that, you will continue to change every weekend, hoping that magic will occur.

I have spent five years relearning how to shoot. It has taken a lot of time and effort, all of which has been enjoyable to me. But, even after five years of this pursuit, I still do not feel I am qualified to produce and post form videos, let alone almost daily.
Well thank you for that Hank...sir...I do not post videos to instruct others...I think the closest I may have come to that a few memorial day weekends ago when I shared that I caught myself turning my head into the string...and shared that...so others didn't get fat lips and bloody noses like I did.

Other than that?...I post videos to..."par-tic-i-pate"..."actively"...share something if I think others may not have addressed and get myself straightened out when I'm headed the wrong way...cause I never make the same mistake twice...I make the same mistakes 5-6 times just to be sure! LOL!...cause if the world has everything figured out already and it can all be condensed into one $19.95 paperback why even bother having forums like this?...so folks can come wise crack about how they know it all and how only one way is proven the best for everyone?...cause it's "proven" and their world stops there?

Thanks Hank....you just reminded me of why I haven't been here in quite some time...L8R.
 
#29 ·
Jink,

I know that you have stated on many occasions that you are not trying to teach folks how to shoot. Unfortunately, a lot of folks, especially new comers to traditional archery, perceive your videos differently. I can tell by their responses. The vast number of videos drive that perception. Lessons take time to learn. In order to have sufficient depth of understanding you must invest sufficient time into the effort. This does not just apply to archery, it applies to many things in life. The more polished the product, the more credibility it has, on a superficial level. I can post my opinion and folks will either accept or reject it, as they would with any poster on a forum. But if I produce daily videos, especially well made videos as yours are, I will naturally acquire a higher level of perceived credibility.
 
#30 ·
Jink,

I know that you have stated on many occasions that you are not trying to teach folks how to shoot. Unfortunately, a lot of folks, especially new comers to traditional archery, perceive your videos differently. I can tell by their responses. The vast number of videos drive that perception. Lessons take time to learn. In order to have sufficient depth of understanding you must invest sufficient time into the effort. This does not just apply to archery, it applies to many things in life. The more polished the product, the more credibility it has, on a superficial level. I can post my opinion and folks will either accept or reject it, as they would with any poster on a forum. But if I produce daily videos, especially well made videos as yours are, I will naturally acquire a higher level of perceived credibility.
Hank...in your above post you almost seem as though you have a grudge in that you spent 5 years studying FITA...and then you go onto infer that in your mind you've achieved comparatively mediocre results....an then follow that with an opinion of me having a higher level of perceived credibility over my vids which are obviously "Not Instructional Videos" yet somehow I'm the cause of newcomers getting led down a garden path?...where should they be?...studying FITA for 5 years for depressing results?...then take it out on someone else online?...because this is where I feel folks start taking themselves (and archery) way too serious and suck the fun out of it right up until they're blaming other posters vids for what?...a bunch of folks having fun?..."First Shots"?...sitting on their butts sideways shooting pine cones?....the magic that is the subconscious shot?....and in general enjoying themselves and having a blast with archery?

You're a good guy Hank....and I know you're better than that....put love, life and happiness first...and everything else will come when it's supposed to.

and btw...That "FITA Stress" you feel right now?...is why I gave up competitive wheelbow archery decades ago.
 
#31 ·
Bill

There are lots if folks here ready willing and able to help you if you want to change. But, you have to be willing to both work at it and stick with it.

I'm learning to shoot a clicker - it isn't easy and it takes time. I've shot two sessions of bale a day for 10 days now - I'm starting to feel strong and in control but I'll give it another two weeks of bale before I start aiming.

Change takes time

In Hanks case I think you are mistaking modesty with mediocrity.

Matt


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#32 ·
Thanks Matt...I just came in from practicing my draw for about an hour at maybe 6-7yds...as usual things didn't go as I envisioned...but imho?...it actually felt better than what I set out and initially intended on doing...and I don't think I'm doing anything wrong it's just that I'm using my longbow and with it's low BH?...right away I noticed I was best off with a slightly open stance as this allowed me to actually initiate the draw using my waist muscles as I raised my bow arm and turned...then it turned into shoulder and then BT...it felt good...came natural....and yep...I made a vid of it as grant has been helping me out with some PM convo's...and yes...I'm looking at this thing called a "Cricket Clicker" for my longbow...I'll be ordering one here shortly.

Thanks again, Bill.
 
#33 ·
I can never figure out why sometimes people brand hard work and effort as not fun. If you love archery then you in theory have a desire to get better. Days and days on the bale isn't on my bucket list of fun things to do but I still enjoy the feel of every perfect shot I execute on it, that's fun.
There are any number of ways to shoot a bow, same as swinging a golf club but there are certain fundamentals needed to shoot consistently well. There is no "my way" or "my method" to those fundamentals, they are what they are. Those who stick to it through good and bad come out better in the end, those that don't, just stay the same, which again is ok if that's your bag.


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