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New Strings for my Hex7 CH

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hex7 strings
31K views 246 replies 28 participants last post by  DDD 
#1 ·




Gotta hand it too Al at Ten Ring...the man twists up a mean one...(or two LOL!)

First one out of the bag hit 6 3/4" BH...(right in the mean of 6 1/2-7" recommended)...5 twists put it right at the Max BH of 7"s even.

It'll be interesting to watch how "The Stretch Factor" of 12 strands of D97 plays out on a 45# Hex7's. :)
 
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#4 ·
As I understand it?...it's not a case of Borders recommending any particular string material as it is them advising to refrain from using "Zero Stretch" string material such as BCYX...FURY...RHINO...etc...

Instead they advise the use of string material that has at least a touch of elasticity such as 8190, D97 and such.

The big hooks of Super Recurve limbs close very hard with a lot of force...zero stretch string material makes life hard on them....toss in factors of string walking with minimal weight arrows and BH?....and you begin the recipe for simulating partial dry fires with each and every shot...not a great idea.

But pile on the GPP using string material with a bit of shock absorption?....and you're good to go...no worries. ;)
 
#7 ·
There's nothing about "sponginess" on the BCY site. There are 3 basic types of bowstring material:

Polyester (dacron): B-55, B-50 This material has the most elasticity.

HMPE (high modulus polyethylene): Dynaflight '97, 8125G, 8190 Universal, 8190F, 652 Spectra. 652 is the original "FF" formula, invented by Bob Destin and Ray Browne (founders of BCY). It's SK65 Dyneema. Dynaflight '97 and 8125 are SK75 Dyneema. 8190 is SK90 Dyneema. Very low stretch materials. Of these, the one with the most elasticity is 652.

HMPE/LCP (Liquid Crystal Polymer) blends: 450+, 452X, BCY-X. The have the least elasticity, due to the Vectran blended into the material. It has practically no stretch. However, there are no "zero stretch" strings. All have some degree of elasticity. The ones with the absolute least are 450+ and 452X, as they contain the most Vectran. BCY-X only has 17% Vectran.

BCY is very approachable for anyone who wants information straight from the source. Their site is www.bcyfibers.com . They will have a booth at many of the larger events events in 2017, including the ATA, Vegas, Kalamazoo, IBO Traditional Worlds, Denton Hill, the TN Classic etc.
 
#14 ·
That would have to come from BCY, if they have done such a study. I just know that the higher grades of Dyneema have a bit less stretch (SK90 being the highest currently available in a string material). The stretch can be nullified somewhat with strand count and draw weight. One of the main reasons these materials are so desirable, especially with target shooters, is the consistency.

I'll find out if such a study has been done. I know they have a breaking machine that measures the amount of stretch in a strand or a particular string before it breaks, and the load required to break it.
 
#18 ·
Everything i have read is that there seems to no noticable effect on consistancy between any of these new string types in modern recurves

Including this from gtek on another forum in 2009

gtek's Avatar
gtek said:
06-01-09 01:30 AM
452X is very tough on recurve limbs in certain conditions. Remember, this stuff was developed for compound buss cables, not recurve strings. The problem is that in some conditions the material is highly inelastic.

Three sets of Korean made limbs failed at the Beijing Olympic Games on the first day of official practice- two using 452X and one reportedly using a Brownell equivalent. Another set of Korean made limbs failed in the same manner on qualifying day, but it is not clear what string material was being used. in that case.

It seems that especially in hot conditions, the relatively inelastic Vectran component is not adequately cushioned by the relatively elastic Dyneema (or Spectra in the case of the Brownell equivalent) component, and this tends to put quite a shock load into the limb.

All the shooters I know who have successfully used 452X for a long period on a recurve (which I can count on one hand) have one thing in common- lots of twists (up to 1.1 twists/inch).

This certainly puts some degree of elasticity back into the string.
 
#15 ·
First shoot results and initial stretching out of the D97 string material on my 60"/45# Hex7 Covert Hunter are in as follows...

I already stated that left under strung tension with no shots fired the BH dropped from 7"s too 6 3/4" overnight.

For some strange reason unbeknown too me?..while it only took 5 twists to take the BH from 6 3/4" too 7" from fresh out of the bag last night?....today it took 7 twists to get that same exact movement out of the string where I began shooting with the bow braced at 7"s.

After the 1st session of 12 shots: BH Measured 6 7/8ths

Here I added another 5 twists taking BH too 7 1/8th

After the 2nd session of 12 shots: BH measured 7 1/16th

Now I did nothing but take the...

3rd session of 12 shots: Where the measured BH afterwards again remained at 7 1/16th.

Impressions:

1 Con: According to my Spidey Senses?...The bow did seem to be a touch more lively at the shot but that may be attributable too the yarn puff string silencers being spread out nearly a foot more between them than the puffs on the 8190 with each about 5-6 inches closer too the tips however?...

2 Pro's: were...

A. Despite the bow feeling a touch more lively at the shot?...it felt like it was over faster.

But the larger Pro seemed to...

B. The string itself seemed to have..."a higher level of directional composure"....after it left my fingers and this was confirmed to me with what seemed to be a more consistent and dependable yielding of clean arrow flight.

But I think that's attributable too the absence of the yarn wraps on the ends of the new D97 string where the bottom line is it simply permitted the string to engage the limbs strings grooves in a more positive fashion which gave the new string that "Elevated Directional Composure" just after the loose and throughout the power stroke of the bow yet seemed as quiet if not quieter at the shot than 8190 with the yarn wrapped ends.

I took and post this pic to remind myself of the bare shaft shot...it was a sight to behold from 20yds and flew very clean for no feathers.



So far I'm very pleased with the response and behavior of D97 string material on this Hex7 Covert Hunter.
 
#22 ·
The difference would be pretty much zero if the strings are equally well made and of the same size/weight.
 
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#20 ·
Copied & Pasted from BCY Fibers FAQ page...

Question: Are there any bowstring materials that do not creep?
Answer: Yes - BCY-X, 450 Plus, 452X and Trophy. These are blends of Dyneema® and Vectran. Vectran has no creep at the tension created by normal bows; therefore these materials are normally 100% stable.

Question: If these products have no creep, why would anyone use anything else?
Answer: Any archer needing maximum speed will find that a Vectran blended product is slightly slower than a 100% Dyneema® or Spectra product.

Question: What is the fastest string material that does not creep?
Answer: On most bows, we would suggest 20 - 24 strands of BCY-X, 452X, or Trophy material in the string and the cable (or make the cables from 12 - 14 strands of 450 Plus). 8125G material is made from Dyneema® material and in many cases there will be little or no creep. Many recurve shooters like 8125G. Traditional recurve shooters find Dynaflight 97 shoots well.


Does anyone else besides me find it interesting how even the folks at BCY Fibers acknowledge the existence of a difference between...

Recurve Shooters: who apparently like 8125G

and/or?....

Traditional Recurve Shooters: who apparently prefer D97! :lol:

cool stuff! :)

and so far?...it seems to me my Hex7 Covert Hunter is responding very well too D97....and this is just based on the first 3 dozen shots of stretching it in...which I feel is all it took to stabilize it because this mornings BH measurement shows it's holding steady at 7 1/6th"...right where it was at when I hung it strung last night.

Today I'll play with puff spacing a bit. ;)
 
#21 · (Edited)
Dynaflight '97 is a good material, and very economical.

Archers like Brady Ellison currently are using 8125. Jason Westbrock was doing well with 8190, but I think he liked BCY-X also. Rod Jenkins and Denny Sturgis Jr. like BCY-X. I know BCY-X is my best seller for recurve and longbow shooters, and I make quite a few strings.

I'm not the same class shooter as the guys I listed, but I've been using a BCY-X string on a Samick Journey (2" longer version of the Sage) since the material came out around 4 years ago. I don't have excessive twist in my string. I've used both endless and Flemish on it. I've won long-distance novelty shoots with it (up to 110 yds), killed a whitetail with it, and killed my biggest stingray to date with it (approximately 100#). This bow retailed for less than $150. I bought it to test BCY-X on. So far so good.

FWIW, I do a lot of shows with BCY. The ATA, Vegas, Denton Hill, IBO Traditional Worlds, Howard Hill, Kalamazoo, etc. and have been for several years now. I get a pretty good idea of what the top shooters are using.
 
#160 ·
Jason Wesbrock was doing well with 8190, but I think he likes BCY-X also.
I make all my own endless strings and (sans Dacron) have used Dyna97, 8190, and BCY-X. I've found them all excellent materials with BCY-X being by far the quietest. I haven't seen any speed difference between the three, and I shoot field archery out to 80 yards and use a chronograph on a regular basis.

My hunting bows shoot 9 gpp with a 32" draw length, and my target bows shoot 5.5 gpp. The limbs on my main target bow are on their 5th season now and show no signs of fatigue. I couldn't begin to tell you how many tens of thousands of shots I've put through them. One of these days they may let go, but it sure won't be because I switched from Dyna97 to BCY-X in 2014.

I don't have the least reservation using any of those three materials. I know with all of them I can spin a string, put it on my bow, shoot a dozen or so arrows, reset my brace height and it's never moving again. That's the kind of consistency I like in my equipment. The only difference is with Dyna97 the initial stretch may drop my brace height ¼", and with BCY-X it's a little less. No big deal.

I'll admit, your knowledge of string materials is way above my pay grade. But I've known you long enough to trust your word. Every time you've told me I'd like something else better, I have. Thanks again, friend. Much appreciated.
 
#23 ·
Traditional Recurve Shooters: who apparently prefer D97!
An easy misconception to develop.

First, you have to realize that BCY doesn't make strings. They make string material. More than anyone else in the world.

What this is based upon is material sold to companies, stores, bowyers, etc. who make strings for traditional bows. Some string companies have contracts and make an unbelievable number of strings every year. I've been asked if I wanted to submit a bid on some of them...I had to smile, say "thanks", and walk off. Way beyond my production capabilities. An example...one was for 10,000 strings per order.

These companies want a high performance material, but are watching the bottom line. Dynaflight '97 fits the bill perfectly. It's a good material, and the most economical amongst the top materials. It only makes sense that they use it. That's where this "stat" comes from.
 
#24 ·
452X is very tough on recurve limbs in certain conditions. Remember, this stuff was developed for compound buss cables, not recurve strings. The problem is that in some conditions the material is highly inelastic.
All the high performance materials still on the market were developed for compound bows (and/or crossbows), including Dynaflight '97.

452X has practically no elasticity regardless of conditions. Normal temperatures do not increase or decrease this effect. That was the goal in developing blended materials like 450+, 452X, and BCY-X: consistency.

It's only in certain conditions that there's any real difference in this department between 100% HMPE and HMPE/LCP blends. It very high temps, and/or with low strand counts, you may get a little creep (not stretch) with 100% HMPE. From what I've seen, target shooters that prefer 100% HMPE materials negate this effect by using a few more strands in the string...i.e. Brady Ellison using 16 strands of 8125.

The drive behind HMPE materials was to eliminate stretch. Kevlar was very popular for this reason, but didn't remain on the market because of a lack of durability.

To get stretch in a string, the only real option is polyester (dacron). B-55 is the best choice in that material.
 
#25 ·
D97 or 8125 are pretty creepy strings. I use 20 strands of 452X (which is thinner than 8125/D97) in an endless loop string of my own making and after an initial overnight stretch I rarely have to ever adjust them again. Seems the non-blended strings I've used in the past (esp flemish twist) keep on creeping for the life of the string. I also think I get better performance with a less elastic string, but it's probably a few FPS at most. Maybe you'll want to try an endless version next time if you can't use a blended less elastic string.
 
#27 ·
this is from BCYs FAQ page.

Question: Do bowstrings provide the same performance on different bows?
Answer: No. It is generally accepted that small diameter string materials of 100% Spectra or Dyneema®, such as 8125, will shoot faster, but of course stability also has to be considered.

The width of the wheel tracks and design of the compound bows can make a difference. Some bows have very wide and friendly wheel tracks and speed tests have shown that blended materials such as BCY-X and 452X and Trophy are not much slower than 8125 on these bows.

On some compound bows, particularly those with narrow wheel tracks, the use of string material with a high percentage of Vectran has resulted in problems such as sudden catastrophic failures.

So, the answer is really that any opinions given by archers on string material relate directly to the bow they are using and it is wrong to assume that the results will be the same on other bows.

this is compound though as there is little info on performance for single string bows
 
#28 ·
Here's a shamelessly copied and pasted response of mine too a different poster on another site that asked the same....

****************************************

it means I sensed the string was dispensing it's energy into the arrow in..."a more straight forward direction".

A more apparent confirmation of this attribute I sensed came by way of observing a higher level of cleanliness in my arrow flight...even when my loose was less than clean and was especially apparent with the bare shaft.

However?...(as I stated)...I attributed this to the lack of yarn wraps over the new D97 strings braided ends...(like the 8190 string has)...which I feel in turn allowed the D97 string to engage, track and align itself into the big hook limbs string grooves in a more positive fashion thereby decreasing...."The Wobble Factor"....which I guess would help that I note is why Borders advises that the arrows on these bows be set-up...."Center-Shot"...as the string begins to engage those limbs grooves pretty much the moment the arrow is loosed as can be witnessed here in this pic....




Where I feel the yarn wraps may have been hampering that same level of clean and immediate string-too-string groove engagement.

And this is just one of many tuning differences one encounters when departing from conventional bow limb tuning wisdom too that of dealing with Super Recurves with their much bigger hooks...and something tells me?...The Old Dawgs ain't None To Keen about That!
:lol: ;)

********************************

and?...here....

***************************************

For me this particular observation was much like a..."Which Came First?..The Chicken or The Egg"...event whereby?...(and I have to think about to remember myself here)...

The first thing that caught my immediate attention was anticipating that my bow would be louder without the yarn wraps...and it wasn't...not even on the first arrow loosed....as a matter of fact if anything?...it was a touch quieter.

The 2nd thing I noticed was my bows at-the-shot behavior...where it moved in a more straight forward direction which is when I noticed an apparent decrease in horizontal tip movement after the arrow left the bow

Then the 3rd thing that caught my attention in short order was the fact that my arrows were somehow flying cleaner on a more consistent basis...even when my release wasn't.
 
#31 ·
a straight line is the most direct and cannot be made more direct.
a spiral is not the most direct. therefor has some give.
Unless there's a huge amount of twist, the difference is negligible. A properly made endless string will have some twist in it. It won't affect performance to any noticeable degree. There will be nowhere near the difference you will get with polyester vs. HMPE, regardless of how much twist you put in.

1. What GPP arrows is the string being subjected too?

and?...

2. How hard are the limbs closing and with how much residual force?
Maybe initially, if the string isn't pre-stretched. Even if it isn't, it's only going to matter until the string gets shot in. After that it's not a factor.

Question: Do bowstrings provide the same performance on different bows?
Answer: No. It is generally accepted that small diameter string materials of 100% Spectra or Dyneema®, such as 8125, will shoot faster, but of course stability also has to be considered.
If the string is equally well constructed and weighs the same, the speed difference will be practically non-existent, at least on traditional bows. It takes a huge difference in string weight to make any real difference in performance.

So, the answer is really that any opinions given by archers on string material relate directly to the bow they are using and it is wrong to assume that the results will be the same on other bows.
In relation to compound bows, which is by far the bulk of BCY's customers. I don't claim to know it all, but I have been studying strings and string materials on traditional bows for over 20 years now. There are exceptions, but few and far between. If a particular string is quieter on a half dozen different bows, then it's generally going to be quieter on all of them. If it's faster on a half dozen, then it's going to be faster on all of them. Simple physics.

How well (or not) the string is constructed makes as much or more difference than the material. That's one of the main complaints I have heard over the past two decades. "I paid a lot of money for my bow...why did it come with a cheap string?".

To be quite honest, the differences in the better materials isn't huge on traditional bows. A little quieter, a little more consistent, a little more durable, but the majority doesn't shoot well enough to realize much of the difference that different materials make.

However, even a beginner will notice a difference in a really good and a really bad string. They may not be able to tell you what the difference is, but they will feel it.
 
#33 ·
Unless there's a huge amount of twist, the difference is negligible. A properly made endless string will have some twist in it. It won't affect performance to any noticeable degree. There will be nowhere near the difference you will get with polyester vs. HMPE, regardless of how much twist you put in.
.
do you have any numbers for this?
not a witch hunt. just trying to put some numbers to this

To be quite honest, the differences in the better materials isn't huge on traditional bows. A little quieter, a little more consistent, a little more durable, but the majority doesn't shoot well enough to realize much of the difference that different materials make.
.
now this is quite a statement.
more consistant.... My dad runs a 50lbs bow. A 17" riser 60" Covert Hunter. Quite often his bow goes for upto 3 months without being unstrung. It goes home. gets shot. comes to work. gets shot. approx. 4 times a week. and his BH doesn't change from one week to the next. so the consistency id say is marketing hype. FF plus. 8125, nothing. the first 50 shots on a new string. no prestretching. and the string settles down.
Not sure how durable is measured. afterall, you should change your string every now and again.

so what is the difference if most cant spot the difference.

I think the number of twists. the tension between strands. and quality of the build will make a bigger difference to the outcome rather than the materials.
until you start hitting high energy setups. such as long draws. and high poundages. then the elasticity factor can start to cause problems... especially with light weight arrows. where bow closure is harder. more abrupt and elasticity starts to impact on the limbs. but the output of the bow, no noticeable difference to the user.

I don't have numbers to back this up. we cant seem to get real numbers from string brands. we also understand that the lack of info could be due to it possibly opening doors on litigation.

as I linked to above, even seasoned professionals in the upper teirs of the industry are advising you avoid the likes of 452X. making observations about limb failures and the use of these string types.

but one thing is for sure. string makers, AND strand makers don't have to pick up the warrenties for limb failures. and whats great. cant even tell you if there is a performance gain in speed OR points.

so id like to see what they would say IF limb makers had the data to say 452X IS the cause of their limbs failing. what would be their suggestions then.

now. back in 2009, I said online we had no problems with users using any string type. but one thing is for sure. there is a high likelihood of a failed set of limbs and the string being a 452x type string.

so much so. if I were to put a bet on the next limb failure being on a less elastic string type. no one here at border would accept the bet.

make your own mind up.

im not the only one that wont advise the use of these strings.

from all the evidence of top archers personal choice that I have read. I think the choice of string is as important to the archers performance as the colour of their socks.
so why run the risk.
 
#32 ·
All else aside, so Border states that running the Dyneema/Vectran blended string materials probably isn't such a great idea, for various reasons.

Fine, it is what it is.

But lets be practical here.

Does running those string materials void their warranty?
 
#34 ·
All else aside, so Border states that running the Dyneema/Vectran blended string materials probably isn't such a great idea, for various reasons.

Fine, it is what it is.

But lets be practical here.

Does running those string materials void their warranty?
due to the lack of evidence, or data from the stand makers. we don't void warranty. we suggest a change of string. we have been known to replace with the caviat of No warranty on the replacements if you continue to use these string types.
 
#35 ·
I don't think there's much relative difference in how hard higher end carbon limbs close. The overall length would be a factor too.

So Sid are you saying that Flemish twist strings might not work as well as endless as there is a less positive engagement with the string grooves? This would apply to any limb too.
 
#36 ·
I don't think there's much relative difference in how hard higher end carbon limbs close. The overall length would be a factor too.

So Sid are you saying that Flemish twist strings might not work as well as endless as there is a less positive engagement with the string grooves? This would apply to any limb too.
I don't even know where to start with this.

30% more stored energy... Na. that wont make a blind bit of difference to limb closure. (100% sarcasm)

and please point to the section where I mention Flemish twist vs endless loop.
let alone where I mention string grooves...
 
#37 ·
Oops, sorry it as Jinks in post #28

However?...(as I stated)...I attributed this to the lack of yarn wraps over the new D97 strings braided ends...(like the 8190 string has)...which I feel in turn allowed the D97 string to engage, track and align itself into the big hook limbs string grooves in a more positive fashion thereby decreasing...."The Wobble Factor"....which I guess would help that I note is why Borders advises that the arrows on these bows be set-up...."Center-Shot"...as the string begins to engage those limbs grooves pretty much the moment the arrow is loosed as can be witnessed here in this pic....

There's a lot more to limb closure "shock" than SE. The length of the limb will determine the tip speed, simple geometry, so a short limb shooting 200 fps should have less shock than a long limb. Speed combined with limb mass will determine the residual KE that will be released when the limb hits the end (brace). If all bows have the same dynamic efficiency and all the extra SE of the Super RC goes into the arrow then the residual should be the same, no?
 
#38 ·
do you have any numbers for this?
not a witch hunt. just trying to put some numbers to this
I do not. I do know that on my stretching jig I can put a load of around 300# on a polyester string and get a good 2.5-3" stretch (that contracts when the load is removed). With a 100% HMPE string, maybe half an inch and very little contracts. With a HMPE/LCP blend, even less and almost all of that is creep (doesn't contract).

...so the consistency id say is marketing hype.
Call it what you will. There's a reason compound bow companies spend a lot of time and money researching string materials, and professional shooters as well. Coach Mel Nichols (Olympic Coach--not the type you normally hear people claiming to be on message boards--he actually coaches Olympians. He coaches Brady Ellison, among others) showed me some of what they go through to pick a string. It was amazing to a string nerd like myself. I don't mean this to be harsh, but calling it "marketing hype" just tells me you aren't very educated on bowstring materials...otherwise you would know better.

so what is the difference if most cant spot the difference
As I said...consistency, durability, stability, and noise. Most folks don't study this stuff. They rely on the people who do, and trust their judgement. Most won't shoot well enough to discern the difference in consistency and stability. That doesn't mean it isn't there. Just like most can't shoot the difference in a $200 bow and a $2,000 bow, but if they can afford it most will choose the $2,000 bow.

until you start hitting high energy setups. such as long draws. and high poundages.
The lightest bow I've shot in several years is 52@31. The bow I shot the longest (and still have it) is 66@30.5". I shot it for tournaments, hunting, and fun for 15 years or so. Never had polyester string on it. Never had a problem with it. My arrows averaged around 9 grains per pound. Not heavy, not light.

even seasoned professionals in the upper teirs of the industry are advising you avoid the likes of 452X
Depends on who you ask. You can find someone to agree or disagree with anything you ask. Almost always, when a bow fails, the first thing to get the blame is the string. I have yet to see any kind of report or test that proves a specific failure was due just to a string. It's usually factors like dry-fires, light arrows, number of shots, etc. that are not factored in. 452X is the benchmark in the compound world, but BCY-X has also made it's mark.

but one thing is for sure. string makers, AND strand makers don't have to pick up the warrenties for limb failures. and whats great. cant even tell you if there is a performance gain in speed OR points.
No, they don't. String makers like myself only have our reputations that took decades to build on the line. There's a reason I was sponsored by the world's largest traditional-only store to make a video, and why I work with BCY at shows. It's sure not for my looks.

I already stated what it takes for a performance gain from a string. Good shooting form, like a proper release, will give you more of a gain than a string will. Points...well, talk to people who make a living shooting bows accurately and ask what they are using. Speaks for itself.

if I were to put a bet on the next limb failure being on a less elastic string type. no one here at border would accept the bet.
And nobody is arguing that is your call. And I can say I have been shooting a Samick Journey, one of the absolute cheapest bows on the market, for 4 years with nothing but BCY-X strings (endless and Flemish), with no problems at all. I can't remember exactly, but I think my arrows are around 8 gpp. I know they aren't heavy. 31" draw. I bought this bow just to test this material. So far, so good.

If there are other companies that are having similar problems, I haven't heard from any of them.
 
#39 ·
LBR:

"There's a reason compound bow companies spend a lot of time and money researching string materials, and professional shooters as well. Coach Mel Nichols (Olympic Coach--not the type you normally hear people claiming to be on message boards--he actually coaches Olympians. He coaches Brady Ellison, among others) showed me some of what they go through to pick a string. It was amazing to a string nerd like myself. I don't mean this to be harsh, but calling it "marketing hype" just tells me you aren't very educated on bowstring materials...otherwise you would know better"

so id know better... thanks for the insult.

anyhow. assumptions aside. So all this testing goes into selecting the right string....
yet they all choose different strings.

that's tells me lots about their testing...
 
#40 ·
i can also add to this:

As I said...consistency, durability, stability, and noise. Most folks don't study this stuff. They rely on the people who do, and trust their judgement. Most won't shoot well enough to discern the difference in consistency and stability. That doesn't mean it isn't there. Just like most can't shoot the difference in a $200 bow and a $2,000 bow, but if they can afford it most will choose the $2,000 bow.

can you say why, some pros use 8125 and some 452x in terms of consistency and stability?
if there is a difference, and its there in the product. every time. surely it should be a slam dunk. stability and consistency. everyone should use the same thing.
yet they don't, can you say why some pros use the lesser consistency, lesser stability string. even though they are made by the same company for example.
 
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