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Short limbs and 27" riser

12K views 66 replies 14 participants last post by  Sid 
#1 ·
Has anyone with a draw at or under 28" ever shot or thought about using a 27" riser with short limbs? This would give you a 68" bow. I like this length for my 27" draw length. Was thinking short limbs might be snappier than mediums on a standard 25".

I currently shoot mediums bolted down fully on a 25" riser. Was hoping shorts on a 27 might be faster still.

Anyone?
 
#32 ·
The magic is that its driven by maths. Driven by engineering. founded on hypothesis testing. the magic that got man on the moon.
We have been at this for some time.
We have one degree in chemistry.
Mechanical engeneering
and 2 other BCs Hons.
we have a sum total of 96 years of bow making experience. including 1 european Barebow champion. one scotish IFAA (SFAA) ex team member. 2 NFAS national champs, 3 scotish NFAS champions. and that excludes my 2 place under 18 european IFAA in portugal.
My dad is currently the scotish champ at marked distance 3d.

there was a french magazine test that was impartial. There was no allegiances with manufacturers. no hairy fairy supposed "feelings"...
all back to sound engineering. the test was back in 2003. have a look at the numbers.

I have a copy of the magazine here.

Well, the main stats of the test went like this: (all 38lbs 70" limbs)
Speed:
W&W Focus: 206fps
W&W Winact: 205 fps
Hoyt FX: 210fps
TX40 Gold:212 fps
Border Premier Carbon:207fps

Torsional resistance to 15lbs side load (deflection in mm)
W&W Focus: 6.2mm
W&W Winact: 5.1mm
Hoyt FX: 7.3mm
TX40 Gold: 5.4mm
Border Premier Carbon: 4.8mm
Edit:We have also noted although the article has mm in its text, we are under the thinking its more like cm.

Stored energy:
W&W Focus: 29.5ftlbs
W&W Winact: 30ftlbs
Hoyt FX: 30.5ftlbs
TX40 Gold:31.5ftlbs
Border Premier Carbon: 31ftlbs

that was our S2 glass limb. back in 2003.
our limbs featured in the following categories without compromise in other areas.
LEAST SIDE LOAD deflection.
Best speed.
Best stored energy.
the prices were included.
We were mid priced .
 
#34 ·
This is advertising copy:

"Formula Carbon F7 Limbs

"The limbs that propelled Oh, Jin-Hyek to the top step of the London 2012 Podium. The Formula Carbon F7 features Triaxial Carbon Technology, lower mass weight, higher speed, Quad Core Technology, incredible durability and consistency over millions of shot cycles. Available with either Hoyt's Syntactic Foam Core or traditional laminated hard rock maple cores, the Formula Carbon F7 is the proven podium leader."

(From http://www.hoytrecurve.com/recurve_bows/hoyt_recurve_limbs.php)

Sid publishes actual data, and is very passionate about what he does. You won't get a Hoyt or W&W rep revealing as much about the materials in their limbs. They prefer to influence you with copy, advertising and sponsoring top archers to reinforce the illogical idea that because Brady shoots a bow it must be the best in the world.

If I didn't like the feel of Border limbs, I wouldn't shoot them. I do, so I do. If you don't, you don't.

John Magera doesn't, as he's publicly stated he likes a little stack at full draw. Doesn't mean the limbs he shoots are better or more efficient than any others; just means they suit him better.

Shoot what suits you, but don't dismiss the opinions of others just because the maths don't appeal to you. The best defence of any bow choice is simply "I like shooting this, so there."

Good shooting :)
 
#35 ·
Jack,

As the 1988 Head US Olympic Cycling Coach and the former Executive Director of US Badminton at the 1992 Barcelona Games, I can guarantee you that the top Olympic archers are not shooting production limbs. They are one-off specials made to their specific needs and specifications that look externally like the production items. This is standard practice for both competition and corporate marketing at that level.

Mark Hodges
 
#38 · (Edited)
Jack,

In previous PM communications with you, I know you value personal "proof" found through your own experimentation. I have no dog in this fight other than improving my personal archery performance. I have advanced degrees in Biomechanics and Exercise Physiology and like to test out things to my satisfaction, as well.

I have found that my best personal data for how a limb performs for me is best proven with an analysis of my shooting results doing a great many American 900 rounds with a 122cm target. 60 yards with fingers at the nock, with a small crawl at 50 yards and a sort of medium crawl at 40 yards. Here are my findings after 18 random rounds with each limb set mounted on the same Best Moon riser using fully tuned 7 gpp arrows over the last few months shooting equally, both outdoors and at a university indoor facility.

Sky Carbon: Average score: 722 Best Score: 742
Dryad ACS-RC: Average score: 732 Best Score: 747
Border Hex6H BB2: Average score: 749 Best Score: 768

Previously I posted my results when these three limbs were tested for speed using a quality chronograph.

Sky Carbon: 203.9 Feet Per Second
Dryad ACS-RC: 211.8 Feet Per Second
Border Hex6H BB2: 215.2 Feet Per Second

http://www.tradtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36976

As I get some additional time during Spring Break, I will post some additional personal observations and test results.

Mark
 
#40 · (Edited)
I've had two GB squad archers (one a two-time Olympian) tell me they thought Border kit was fantastic. One in fact said he used to shoot them as a junior and would happily shoot Border limbs again if his main sponsor would let him.

Again, just hearsay.

Edit: I should add that most top archers I've ever been lucky enough to chat to have the opinion that provided you like the kit you are shooting, there's nothing much wrong with picking any brand.
 
#43 ·
Jack. Imagine a Bakery, set up to make French sticks. They could bash them out faster than a fast thing on a fast day.
The reason is. all thier ovens, mixers and weight scales are all setup to roll those long battons of bread.

Now. someone comes along with a new and improved french stick, Its horse shoe shaped.
imagine the chaos. OH... cant get as many in the oven.
The baging dept is completely NOT set up for it.
The wrapping is different.
I cant get as many in a box. so i need new boxes.

BUT. I have 90% of my product line. simply WONT allow us to use the new shape.

So lets have a look at the costs of limbs.

You need clamps/jigs to hold the limbs, for the nocks. and the string grooves.
You would need new ones.
the grinding in of the profile. MIGHT need wider belts.
The deeper hook requires a taller sanding belt to accomodate the full height
The forms would need to be changed.

Then you would need in Hoyts case. A totally new spine chart, and retrain all the team coaches.
MAN WHAT AN UPHEAVAL.

it gets more complicated than that.
The base limb, the bread and butter of bow making. It would need to retain the original shape
since our Hex series simply WOULDNT work in a plain jane glass/wood core.
SO any production line, would need a new setup. a new line. for NOT that many limbs.

Remember that top end sales are the small end of the market.

you wouldnt want to commit the cheap end of the product line, the ones thats price sensitive. to expensive carbon stabilisation layers.

So to accomodate the two profiles = ALOT of costs.

Its easier to buy brady ellison.
Its easier to be the chairman of the IOC, its easier to buy the Oly team. Free bows to anyone that makes it.

its just simply easier.
(please note that syntactic foam is mentioned in the diagram of a bow in the FITA manual. Its a patented Hoyt concept. Name another patented concept in the governing body manual)

So what are we talking about in terms of new formers.
Well.


here is a freshly glued up hex5.
Now lets have a look at the actuallity of glueing up these.

look at the 0.47 seconds mark on this video, and explain to me how this vertical press system can Easily copy the hex5 profile without locking onto the former?

now. ID LOVE W&W, SAMICK, Hoyt or any of them to copy the profile.

ID SIMPLY LOVE IT.
because that would mean we could release the Hex7. prooving thier still behind.
heheheeee... as soon as they admit it. They would be admiting there is a better profile.

Now. We dont go though dealers that much. so you might find that its dealers that sponcer local top shots.
That rules us out.
Those hotshots get put forward to manufacurers. and since we dont pander to top shots. they walk past us.
We have some top archers who have asked to be given our product.
We return a email saying NO. If we gave you a bow how would our independednt top shots feel.

Lets just see what next year brings in the barebow fita Fields.

and LETS NOT forget the UUkha limbs. they might prompt the big players to pull thier socks up.

afterall.
what is W&W's mantra. Speed, stability and smoothness.
Well from what i know, they are loosing out in at least 2 of these to an UUkha. So they best pull thier socks up.
I see a future of deeper hooks thats for sure.
 
#44 · (Edited)
I believe I have a few informed insights garnered during my 12 years of working at the US Olympic Training Center and three Summer Olympic Games.

1. The exact equipment and designs utilized by the highly trained and refined skills of Olympic athletes is generally not effective when used by regular competitive participants in the same sport. In fact, most competitive participants, below the international level, would be better off using equipment and components more directed to their actual abilities.

2. Olympic athletes, especially in non-western nations, are effectively professional athletes, with high national profiles, bound financially by the sponsorship system. The athletes receive a large portion, if not all their income, from personal sponsors, as well as the contractual sponsorship arrangements of their clubs, coaches, trade teams, and even their sport's National Governing Bodies. These sponsorships usually invove the largest and most successful corporations which can afford this. The athletes know where their bread is buttered, and the penalties for of stepping outside these sponsorship arrangements are too costly to ever consider.

3. Due to the obvious shape of the Border (I could use Uukha, Dryad, Morrisson, etc) it could not be disguised. If the form was proven superior at 70+ meters, the Hoyt-based corportations would not follow suit, because the new design would not longer allow them the ability to mass produce limbs in a hydraulic press as they currently do. They would lose a huge profit margin per set of limbs if they were forced to hand-produce the limbs. Addtionally, these large corrporations sponsor teams and athletes to be able to use their "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" marketing philosophy. There would be no way they would win with a desgn they could not offer down the full length of their product line. They would not risk the market share.

At the highest level of Olympic sport, you just have to follow the money to know the whys and hows. Everyone has their own truth based upon their experiences and resources.

Mark
 
#46 ·
Hey Jack,

Neither of us are sponcered olympic level athletes so we are free to use what ever equipment we like best. What limbs will you be putting on your 27" riser?

For me it is easy, I have been shooting Border limbs for several years and I love the feel. As well I trust the performance data many folks here have generated. Just this morning placed the order for extra short Hex6 H BB2 limbs to go with the Win & Win Inno Max that you also fancy.

Rasyad
 
#47 ·
Hey Jack,

Neither of us are sponcered olympic level athletes so we are free to use what ever equipment we like best. What limbs will you be putting on your 27" riser?

For me it is easy, I have been shooting Border limbs for several years and I love the feel. As well I trust the performance data many folks here have generated. Just this morning placed the order for extra short Hex6 H BB2 limbs to go with the Win & Win Inno Max that you also fancy.

Rasyad
I'm not an archery snob and do not care one bit about status. I can buy anything I want with no regard to price. Recently I purchased both Hoyt's top F7s and their entry level 720s for the sole purpose of testing. Neither limb did I keep but sold at a huge loss. I don't much care about cost.

So stating that, the best limb I've ever shot for grouping at 20 yards as measured by 300 score is the WW Axiom. The cheapest limb on the ILF market. If all were going to do is shoot indoor 300 I'd only shoot that simple limb. Right now I average 262 with that limb and it remains the ONLY limb I've ever broken 270 with indoors. Four times I've shot that limb over 270 with a PB of 277.

For 3D where some increased speed is helpful I prefer either SF Premium Carbon/Wood or Samick Universal Carbon/Wood. Both of these limbs allow me to shoot into the 260s on the 300 round and they are much faster than the Axiom. I shoot this limb about 4 points lower indoors compared to the Axiom.

I never judge a limb by how they "feel" or how they look. I don't care what they are made out of. I only care about how I can score with them at 20 yards on the 300 round. Nothing else matters unless status is part of your limb-buying agenda.

A limb that scores well at 20 yards will hold that small group out to the full range of the 3D games I play.

So I'd be using a Samick Univeral Carbon/Wood limb on any 27" riser I might get. For my testing it's shown to be the best limb for me. More people should extensively test their own limb choices by shooting dozens of 300 scores and then compare the average score against other limbs they've owned. This remains the ONLY way to know for sure a limb is superior. Superior if accuracy is what you're after - it might not be important to you as I'm beginning to understand is the case with some. They like stuff like feel and shot finish and other irrelevant nonsense.
 
#49 ·
Chris, never to shoot a dozen 300 rounds but just recently I did shoot a Border takedown wood bow (can't recall the model name) fitted with the hex 6 limb. Bow was marked 64/66".

I found it scary fast with the deadest feeling on the shot I've ever experienced.

I only shot it a few times at 20 yards and so I could not say how it grouped. I never judge anything by a single outing shooting somebody else's bow not set for me.

But I understand where you going, Chris. You bought a set and like them. I'd have to shoot at least 600 scored arrows before I'd trust any limb.

If you are serious about loaning me some limbs I'd happily take you up on this. Would be willing to give you their value in cash to hold as I shot them out of your jurisdiction. You never know, stuff can break and I would not only feel responsible but be responsible.

Will PM you later.
 
#50 ·
I set a Washington State indoor record of 282 14x with Border TXBs. No other limb I shot in that weight range was as good, period.

I will be getting a set of Hex in 32-34# eventually, they are better than the TXB.

As for no other manufacturer following Border, where do you think the W&W Inno profile came from? It's a near carbon copy of the TXB/CXB profile, along with the laminate composition.

-Grant
 
#51 ·
Jack, maybe there were tuning variables with the other limbs and your axioms are simply tuned the best with your bow timing, tiller, arrow spine, plunger tensions etc. if you're shooting 260s then you're plenty good to shoot at30 and 50m. Move back there and you'll get to see all kinds of things that are difficult to observe at 20 yds. I've have axioms, a bunch of intermediate limbs and am awaiting some hex 6. The rcx100 limbs I had were my fav for feel and score to date. This is comparing them to samick masters max, agulla ultra, winex, samick athlete carbon foam, pse pro elite, samick universal glass( best limb for price IMO) sf carbon wood (another inexpensive but good limb) and finally samick privelage which is another great limb for the price.
All I have now are the axioms in 22at my draw, samick athlete 34@32 and some hex6hbb2 also 34@32 on the way (funded by selling all my archery equipment to fund one full high-end fita rig I've been putting together for the past 2 years)

:highfive:
 
#52 ·
Ryan, I think you are correct about some things. I've never thought, for instance, that every Axiom limb is a good one. No doubt within a run of limbs, no matter the make or price range, that some will simply work better for a given archer than others. Nothing you can measure with calipers or strain gauges. But something that shows itself when being shot - the way it recovers, something. I have always understood this.

There is one aspect of Border's great speed that no doubt has great benefit even though I still doubt that limb's ability to group up to the gilt edge at 70 meters and beyond, and that is the ability to shoot unmarked yardage inside, say, 50 yards better than any other limb.

Whatever the Border may give up in lateral dispersal is more than made up for in flat trajectory and guessing distance by the shooter. Overall the Border shooter might have an edge inside 50 yards. I would not argue against this. Sometimes flat out fast is what is best at closer ranges like in hunting or 3D.

I never said or implied the Border limb was no good or inaccurate. I only contend that it's probably not up to the Olympic game of long range shooting where any limb that is 1" less able at 70 meters would be discarded after team testing. That's how fussy those shooters are. Oly shooters already have all the speed they need and they use sights. So guessing yardage is not part of the game. All they want is the most accurate limb, not the fastest. I think this is what confuses many people who read my comments. Crazy speed is not needed in the Olympic game. It's nice, but not as nice as the smallest group size. That's the only thing that matters.
 
#55 ·
Jack. thats hard to show... here is why

All bows shoot flat out to 20 yards.
most bows shoot dam near the same out to 40 yards.

its at distance speed really matters.

Why else would you drop poundage and shoot the slower bow indoors. and the fast one outdoors of speed was not a concern at 70 and 90 meters.

your still spell bound by a point you simply cannot proove. and that is accuracy at 70-90 meters.
why would our limbs get an arrow to 50meters then suddenly go AWOL.
infact our limbs, since they are still carring good momentum should be more reliable at speed unless you know better?

so since you havent shot our limbs. how do you know that our limbs cant manage 90 meters with credability?
what factors would you say, means that we are out of the running at 70 and 90 meters?
 
#53 ·
Yup, that's about all right IMO, Jack.

Don't forget that increased speed really equals increased energy/efficiency or both. With the increased speed you can shoot a much heavier arrow at the same speed as "normal" limbs and the heavier arrow does usually translate to better wind-bucking scores at longer distances. High level Guys shooting close to 50lbs probably don't want any more speed or they will need stiffer x10s or nano pros and they don't make them. For people shooting lesser draw weights this gives the ability to shoot a heavier and or higher FOC arrow at the same speed as normal limbs without in increasing draw weight. I definitely agree with your point on speed helping with unknown distances under 50 yds too.
 
#54 ·
At the risk of falling into the 'fawning' category here's my reasons for buying from Border.

I started out with new but cheap limbs, promising myself a good set of limbs when I reached whatever poundage I would top out at.

Not being a professional athlete with the physical training that entails, I needed the necessary speed to have a 50m PO with the least weight held. That was the defining criterion.

From threads and reports on here I narrowed down my choices to Winex limbs or Border limbs.

I read all I could and noted what was relevant about those limbs. I liked the smoothness idea- a slight variation in DL would be punished less. The claimed torsional stability should help with left-right issues and also moderate the left-right issues of stringwalking.

Now those features are not as important to an archer with a clicker and the competence not to need them but I'm sure they wouldn't hurt either.

The argument about Border not being represented in the top tiers of the sport has been hammered out before on other forums. They are a small company and can't afford to match the contingency fees of the bigger companies.

So while this remains untested, as far as I know, it also remains unproven.

I never said or implied the Border limb was no good or inaccurate. I only contend that it's probably not up to the Olympic game of long range shooting where any limb that is 1" less able at 70 meters would be discarded after team testing.
 
#58 ·
If you ever wanted to see the stats. well, big recurces are unstable, YES. if you compair two equal designs of glass and UD composits. as per earl hoyts designs.

If i said that the Hex6 has less side to side flex when strung or unstrung than a EX power?

Put a side load on the limb tip and watch it flex. the standard Hex6 even with its big lever dissadvatage still torsionally flexes less than the smaller recurves. so where is the instability there?

that is what torsional stability does for limb design.

and for fits and giggles. here is a golden oldie.
ONE I DO NOT RECOMEND PEOPLE DO WITHOUT SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING BUYING A NEW PAIR OF LIMBS AFTER THIS ONE...
http://s1097.beta.photobucket.com/user/Borderbows/media/00048.mp4.html

so yeah. big recurves are unstable.
 
#59 ·
Sid, why don't you lend a set of your limbs to the whatever UK Olympic archer you feel to be the best athlete. Ask him or her to ring them out for a few months and then see if that person chooses to stay with them.

I'm sure the chosen archer will shoot many practice rounds at 70 meters and keep score. I'm equally sure they'll hand them back to you at the end and say, "lovely limb, Sid, but not quite what I'm looking for. I like a different feel."

This, of course, is code for I could not shoot them to a superior level compared to what I'm currently shooting. Nobody is going to trash your generous offering to your face or even later in private. But they won't use them either.

You can put an end to all of this by simply lending out a set in some very public way.

One last question. I've asked this before and you always dodge it. How come archery is the the only sport where the contestants avoid using the supposedly best piece of equipment available on the open market - your limb?

In golf they fight over the chance to play the best clubs. Golf companies copy every improvement within weeks of some other competitor introducing it. In my sport of kayak racing it was the very same way. The instant a new wing paddle or hull shape was proven superior, you had to keep up and offer that model too or you suffered.

Tennis and racing bikes, baseball gloves and bats, and on and on within the sporting world. You come up with a proven better product and everyone is using it at the top levels of the sport and very quickly.

But not archery. Nobody in the Olympic game wants your design and you say it's because of sponsorship? I'll try not to laugh out loud. It does not make sense. In every other sport you see follow-the-leader. But not archery.

Very strange. LOL
 
#60 ·
Sid, why don't you lend a set of your limbs to the whatever UK Olympic archer you feel to be the best athlete. Ask him or her to ring them out for a few months and then see if that person chooses to stay with them.

I'm sure the chosen archer will shoot many practice rounds at 70 meters and keep score. I'm equally sure they'll hand them back to you at the end and say, "lovely limb, Sid, but not quite what I'm looking for. I like a different feel."

This, of course, is code for I could not shoot them to a superior level compared to what I'm currently shooting. Nobody is going to trash your generous offering to your face or even later in private. But they won't use them either.

You can put an end to all of this by simply lending out a set in some very public way.

.

Very strange. LOL
Jack your very funny...

How about i hand my limbs to a supposed independednt archer, to find out there opinion, and then find out that they are commited to helping a fellow bow maker.
you then take your hat off to them as they are a professional. they know what they are doing.
and you spend your time paying lip service to each other out of respect for the two sides of the story.

How about when an archer stands next to Brady Ellison on the same target at the US nationals, and this archer is shooting a RX with some Hex6 limbs. kinda like Brady, and in the insuing conversations is as follows: the exact details might be bit off.
Looks like your shooting simliar weight to me!
No im shooting 44lbs.
OH. im 52.
Those are VERY different.
Yes you should try them...here do you want to....

NO i cant be seen even holding another bow!

now that also makes you chuckle eh!

the top teir requires a financially independednt person to be able to take independent kit selection. AND there are NOT many of them.

For example. some teams get free kit handouts. some have to simply shoot what they are given.

and whats even more DAFT is this debate would still be taking place simply because the ONLY place you would accept as evidence is GOLD.
so if you cant afford the best, if you cant buy No1. then why bother urinating in the wind!
We instead make sure that there isnt a measurement we come second on. a measurement where we hands down have it in the bag.
so when you bought your F7s. Did they come with a free Brady or Jake to shoot them for you.... NO... but when you buy some limbs from us, i can Garentee you that all the income goes into making the best limbs we know of. Your F7 money, some of it went to pay Brady and the 50 odd other Recurve pro Staffers!

Cant be cheap.

but then again, thats what you paid for.
 
#62 ·
anyways Jack. in december my wait time for product was 6-8 weeks. Its now 12-14 weeks.

So with my delivery times growing. I suppose i cant be missing too much. and with that said. Barebow seems a strong field for us... our limbs have been on bows that have have had some good results in 2012. and there is ALOT of top end barebow archers showing good solid interest in our limbs.
While here in the UK, our AIUK profile is boasting some solid PBs for UK target archers.

I suppose i need to go back to my first years Uni lectures.
Diffusion of Ideas.
you have early adopters through to the lagards.
our bell curve is moving quickly. its changing world wide. we are stepping into the 2nd quartile of adoption in our experience. with the hex6, sales are still growing

We release new editions when sales start to drop. The sales of the hex6 are still growing. this is neat, as we are in year 2 of the hex6. and its still going strong. The Hex5 started to platau due to our market being newer and smaller. we are no where near our market saturation yet.

Kamie in Japan is onto his 100th hex 6 limb set. and whats great... it is that it trashes your theory that im a great salesman. I dont speak a word of japanese. NOR am i able to read a single word/symbol of it.

So i can only assume its the product thats selling itself and its soley aimed at target.
Kamie, Took japans 1st place Vets last year. so hes not complaining.

neither am I.
 
#63 ·
Sid, you are one formidable foe. :) I can't put a single dent in your armor. Of course I have not moved off my mark but neither have you.

So the only thing I can say that we can both agree on is that I'll shut the hell up going forward. I mean, what's the sense. LOL

I think you're very interesting and I never miss one of your posts. Soon I'll find some other thing to pester you about. But it won't be about limbs. Of that you can be sure.

Take care, Sid.
 
#67 ·
Sid, you are one formidable foe. :) I can't put a single dent in your armor. Of course I have not moved off my mark but neither have you.

So the only thing I can say that we can both agree on is that I'll shut the hell up going forward. I mean, what's the sense. LOL

I think you're very interesting and I never miss one of your posts. Soon I'll find some other thing to pester you about. But it won't be about limbs. Of that you can be sure.

Take care, Sid.
jack. i took a 20,000 pound a year pay cut to work for border.
i did it because i firmly beleave in the product. i sit up at night answering peoples questions because i want to.
its 6 am. and im off to germany for 3 days on work stuff. and im trying to tell you all i know to help you see what i see.
i will argue the point till my last breath because i beleave in it. i formed this opinion through reading hundered of emails.
Ill never need another bow.
this bow shoots harder and faster than my old bow but its 5lbs less.
i dont spray arrows from a plucked loose.

our limb are physically the lightest on the market. 155 grams.
and have the best stored energy we have seen. and ive challenged big lads to twist tje d things. go on break it. my limbs so dont pull the punches.
even with a longrod on its vertically stable. it will hold the bow just holding the string.
i simply beleave in it.
 
#64 ·
Jack,

I know you've tried a lot of different limbs. I really think you should consider borrowing those Borders and giving them a try.
Speed isn't everything, but being able to hold the same or less weight and shoot heavier arrows the same speed then that is an advantage, especially if that added weight goes into a higher FOC.
They also offer something unique for a stringwalker: they don't deviate much in speed or tune as you change crawl. I saw less than a 5fps spread from max crawl to fingers under the nock and only 2fps down to 20m crawl. Plus I didn't have to touch my plunger until I was under 20m. I haven't seen any other limb come close to that, and it's something you can measure if you've got a chrono.

They do require a different approach to tuning though and that is where some people get into trouble. They need less centershot in order to maintain the same launch angle as limbs with a higher BH. Because of this I find the plunger tension doesn't have as much effect.

Food for thought from someone who has shot quite a lot of what Sid has to offer.

-Grant
 
#65 ·
Hi Grant,

If you don't mind could you tell me what tiller you are running and what your max crawl is?

I have the bow set to +10mm, Point on is 45 yards, Max crawl is 1.5" which puts the arrow into shotgun mode out to 20 yards.

Thanks, Rasyad
 
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