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Short limbs and 27" riser

12K views 66 replies 14 participants last post by  Sid 
#1 ·
Has anyone with a draw at or under 28" ever shot or thought about using a 27" riser with short limbs? This would give you a 68" bow. I like this length for my 27" draw length. Was thinking short limbs might be snappier than mediums on a standard 25".

I currently shoot mediums bolted down fully on a 25" riser. Was hoping shorts on a 27 might be faster still.

Anyone?
 
#2 ·
Hey Jack,

I have a 27" draw at a 1.5" crawl and am ordering the new Win & Win Inno Max in 27" and upgrading to Border Hex 6 shorts. According to Sid we might expect a 2-3 FPS gain using shorts on a 27" riser compared to medium limbs on a 25" riser. Because I am also upgrading from Hex5 to Hex6 there should be another 5-6 fps bump.

Rasyad
 
#4 ·
I had a fiberbow and was pretty unhappy when it started to change shape on me after a year or so. No such problems with the Win & Win TF Apex. The Apex is very straight and well built. I like the improved features of the Inno Max, especially the new ILF "T" dovetail system and the back weight mount. The 25" Max is starting to ship now and I have been told availability of the 27" riser should be in April sometime.

Rasyad
 
#5 ·
Discussions here before suggest that limb length should match draw length, the riser length being less critical until you go to the shorter hunting lengths.
I'd guess you would nominally be more of a medium length.....BUT, could probably get away with a short and especially a short limb known for not stacking.

What I'm saying is 'Go for it', but choose your limbs with care.
 
#6 ·
One other thought would be.... to consider limb poundage..... whether a weaker limb with high preload and a lower BH might be faster than the next stronger limb up with less preload and a higher BH. Poundages being equal OTF.

Depending on DL v. smoothness, if you're on the lower side of the recommended DLs for a limb size, increasing the preload brings that area of smoothness/max efficiency into reach of your DL. And vice versa.
 
#8 ·
Its been awhile since we have seen some high end limbs in the trad blanket section. :)
SWJ won't be one the one selling them though.

(There's two ways to read that comment..... select the one you prefer) ;)

Sorry Jack...... well, nearly! :)
 
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#10 ·
Aiden,
You are correct about balancing the limb length, preload, BH...ect. I have medium Hex5W limbs cranked most of the way in on a 25" riser with sub 7" BH. Shooting 8.8 GPP I am getting 195 fps. With a 27" DL and super recurve limbs I am assured smoothness. A 27" riser with short Hex 6 limbs will definately work. Were I not in a new bow mode I could also just go with short limbs on my 25" Apex.

My weird constraint is having a one bow for all uses (target, 3D, hunting) preferance. I am only into owning and setting up one bow and tuning for one set of arrows capable of shooting field points and broadheads.

With the new set-up I could drop weight an keep the same speed or keep my existing draw weight and gain a bit of speed / trajectory and KE. Pretty sure I am going for the speed.

Last, I do not know how the geometry changes between the 25" and 27" W&W risers. I am thinking about sending the new riser off to Sid and let him decide on the best limb legnth (short or extra short) and tiller.

Rasyad
 
#11 ·
Kenn,

My back-up medium Hex5W limbs are posted on the trading blanket right now.....

Rasyad
 
#12 ·
Okay, ready to order limbs. I will be getting Border Hex 6 H BB2 limbs as recommended by Sid. Length, however, is up to me. At my 27" draw length both short limbs and extra short limbs would work. On a 27" riser short limbs make a 68" bow and Extra Shorts make a 66" bow. My current setup is a 25" riser with Medium limbs making a 68" bow.

I am leaning toward the extra shorts for the extra speed. Any thoughts, downsides to the shorter bow?

Rasyad
 
#13 ·
Longer limbs are normally recommended for SW. If it ever arose, conventional shorts might be easier to sell on?
 
#15 ·
yeah, Hank, its all to do with letoff.

The bigger cams = more block and tackle effect so less lever action needed.

I would think the longer riser approach for conventional limbs is a little but is a reduced benefit, since the smoothness is limited. and thats where limb length and smoothness comes in.

For the longer bow length you get more string mass, and more shallow angles, better for release, but not so good for energy storage.

This is the reason why we think that longer risers suit super recurves. as the smoothness is not a penalty.
 
#16 ·
while I can't speak for custom bowyers who carefully craft their limbs using innovative material and designs------

IN general the limb length designations S/M/L and I assume xS and xL were designated to maximize overall benefits matched to specific draw length ranges. In general, long term experience seems to indicate that using shorts for longer than designed draw lengths and on longer risers generally results in excess stress in limbs and risks potential premature limb failure. I doubt that most of the major industrial limb mfgs would endorse or warranty such usages.

Obviously, if a custom bowyer/limb maker has confidence in his materials and limb designs and recommends such an application in that specific situation is assumed to be safe.

I would not personally recommend as a general practice without careful consultation with the specific limb maker in a custom situation, or the warranty provider in case of offshore industrially made limbs.

When dealing with used limbs, its a crap-shoot with your money and your well-being on the table.

Advanced technology and variant shooting techniques (string walking being just one example) have altered the long-time traditional dynamics. When you move outside the longterm established practices you need to give careful thought and do your due-diligence to avoid unwanted complexications

just say'n:sbrug:
 
#17 ·
Hi Wayne,

Given my 27" draw, both short limbs and extra short limbs are well within the Hex 6 recommended design specification on a 27" riser. With my current setup on a 25" riser I had to choose between short and medium limbs. I went with medium limbs knowing that I would be not using them to full potential and did so thinking I would also use the limbs on a shorter riser for hunting. As it turns out I really only like shooting one bow and will be going with the extra short limbs, and extra speed.

Rasyad
 
#18 ·
thats a good situation/resolution. You are on the cusp between short/medium and you are dealing with limbs of a higher order of quality and design. Its the guys trying to pull used industrial "shorts" 29 inches and on inappropriate risers who are going to do some damage--to the limbs, if not themselves.
 
#19 ·
Yep, I would agree there is always a risk when overdrawing conventional limbs. Of course any limb will fail when pushed too far. That said super recurve geometry and advanced materials allow a range of use that clearly exceeds the performance envelope of conventional limbs and especially limbs of lesser materials and lesser craftsmanship.

Rasyad
 
#21 ·
Yep, I would agree there is always a risk when overdrawing conventional limbs. Of course any limb will fail when pushed too far. That said super recurve geometry and advanced materials allow a range of use that clearly exceeds the performance envelope of conventional limbs and especially limbs of lesser materials and lesser craftsmanship.

Rasyad
There's nothing in a Border limb that can't be found in a Samick or Win Win or any other modern limb. Nor would I even suggest the other major makers have lesser craftsmanship. Just saying.
 
#23 ·
Dana,
Pretty much the same as now, a couple pounds less. New limbs should be 50# @ 27.

Rasyad
 
#24 ·
Jack, I'd agree with Grant on that and if you ever make it to this part of the world I'd be glad to give you the opportunity to reconsider your opinion.

I have a reasonable selection of Borders old and current stuff and a few of your old favourites to compare with. :)

Just bring your 30" DL............ :(

Or a very thick glove. :)
 
#26 ·
Sid,

Small world, Joe on ArcheryTalk is talking about the limbs he just bought from me. I am shooting the matching pair on my 25" TF Apex riser.

Rasyad
 
#29 ·
Border's limb geometry is different, but the material making up the limb is not from Mars. The carbon components are the same as found in other limbs. Perhaps Sid arranged them in a way that was first in the industry but that is all.

I remain unconvinced the Border limb contains anything not found in upper level Korean limbs, or limbs by other makers.

Having worked myself in the racing boat industry for 20 years and being familiar with carbon and bonding agents technology, I can tell you Sid is a great salesman with a loyal but somewhat fawning following. (no offence intended, just an observation)
 
#30 ·
Border's limb geometry is different, but the material making up the limb is not from Mars. The carbon components are the same as found in other limbs. Perhaps Sid arranged them in a way that was first in the industry but that is all.

I remain unconvinced the Border limb contains anything not found in upper level Korean limbs, or limbs by other makers.

Having worked myself in the racing boat industry for 20 years and being familiar with carbon and bonding agents technology, I can tell you Sid is a great salesman.
you will know that S2 glass is not ordinary bow glass.
Bow glass is E glass.
So our TX40 laminate was S2 Glass, cross weave carbon. UD carbon.
the S2 being the outer laminate.
we stopped using this laminate in 2007. and started it in 2001.

ok, now go and look up the Samick range of BF and BF 2 and masters limb.
KPC, on another forum had a 3 year debate over this one about the tradtech limb not containing glass. he stommped up and down about it not being the case. even John Wort told me there was no glass on a Extreme BF limb.
Turns out that it does. and i was right. S2 glass = Zentron S.
so there is a glass in the top end samick limbs.

as for the Hoyt limb. They are not even glear glass on the belly. they contain black glass on the belly, and the limb mass does represent this.

As for W&W. well there Inno was supposed to be a total carbon laminate. but they dont seem to be saying much about the ex series.

and not all carbon is equal.

Id like to see them using the same carbons as we do. that would be interesteing. esp for the money they are selling W&W limbs for.

Whats the mass difference between a N-Apecs. and a EX -Power?
what is the TS difference in the. if you cant feel any change, then there isnt much difference, and if you can get the N-apecs for less moneys.

Id be very confident that our smoothness and speed would be seen by 99% of all people that tried them back to back with any Korean product.

We have seen reports that we are between 4-10 fps faster than any mass produced limb like for like. price for price. but if you wanted a conventional profile, then we do that too. our CV series will deliver more speed, but a SLIGHT smoothness gain over the likes of a Inno type limb but our conventional limb is $378 for the wood core.
Why spend 600 bucks for a limb when somthing thats torsionally stiffer, slighty faster, and slightly smoother than anything out there, for $378 or $443 for the full hyperflex core.

Jack you really have a downer on us.

I can assure you there are NOT many limbs out there with a SE/PDF value of over 1.0 at 28"... we didnt do that without doing our homework.

NOW remember they are going though a dealer , who are taking thier 30-40% cut. so remember they dont have the materials budget since its part gobbled up in dealer discounts.

there are at least 28 different specs of carbon. excluding the use of nanotubes, and resin systems. some of these are expesnive. We have to piggy back some F1 team orders to get some of the carbons we need. Special order stuff, not normal production runs from even the carbon manufacturers dont run this stuff normally.
 
#31 ·
Sid, nobody is required to believe in your limb. I know John Megara is not a believer. I've read his thoughts on your limbs.

You make a fast limb - no doubt about it. But your materials are not magic even if you think they are.

I'll let this go. Have made my comment and if nothing else is true, it's true you have more energy then me and are capable of much more advertising copy. I get bore easily and cannot read it all.

When the Korean national team trots out a big hook like yours with magic materials involved I'll start considering your limb. I only look at what the top team shooters are shooting. Afterall, it's their job to win. If your limb was better at 70 meters all makers of limbs would be copying your model. Just like Earl Hoyt's shape got copied. Only the best shape wins in the end. And you're not even on the map in the Olympic world. Not yet anyway. Write me back when your limb makes the smallest groups constantly at 70 and 90 meters.
 
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