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Paid high fence trophy hunts

6K views 31 replies 17 participants last post by  petew 
#1 ·
http://www.rdmwildbunch.com/breeders/rdm-44-mag.htm#

Here's a place that breeds trophy bucks. They also book trophy hunts on their ranch all year round. This is a profitable operation and there are people who will pay good money for this type of "hunt", but I don't feel it's hunting in the sense that I think of hunting.

The dillemma is: Is there something wrong with this, per se? Is there a legitimate non-contradicting moral or ethical judgement to be made about this sort of thing or is this simply a matter of different values for different people. I tend to think it's really none of my business if someone wants to book a trophy hunt of this sort but I thought it might be something worth discussing and thinking about.
 
#2 ·
Personally, I don't have any ambition to "pay" for a hunt of that nature. I don't want pass judgement on anyone for making that choice. I just think that my sense of accomplishment for taking an animal from a place like that would be dimineshed (spelling?).

Levyrat
 
#4 ·
Unless i misssed it, they don't say how many acres are fenced in. If it's in the thousands, i don't see where it would matter. If it were thousands of acres with 100 acre tracts fenced off, it would matter. I tend to think that when deer are farmed, they become semi-tamed like cattle.
They state "year round" hunting on one page of their site, and" hunts scheduled" only from sept. thru jan. on another I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to book a hunt for a trophy buck this time of the year.
I think they should advertise the price range of the class buck the hunter can afford, or is after.

I myself, have no desire to hunt a place like that, even if i could afford it, but have nothing against those that do.
I have a friend that hunted a similar place like that one, called "Wild Rivers Whitetails", up in northern Wisconsin. He killed a real nice 167 class buck with a 7 mag., that cost him around seven thound dollars. This farm also sells semen & yearling bucks for a very high price.

If i were going to put a lot of money in a hunt... It would have to be in Africa, and it would be with a rifle. :D
 
#5 ·
I think that there is nothing wrong with killing an animal in a high fence enclosure so that you can eat it. Just like cattle and sheep these normally wild animals may fill someones need for food. It is however just that, killing. It in no way should be confused with hunting.
 
#6 · (Edited)
"Alberta gets to thank Game farms for the current outbreak of CWD and the cull of hundreds of wild deer by our F&W every year."

Same for the CWD in New York! In addition, non-random breeding (high fences) can be potentially bad for the genetics of the herd, and potentially other herds since it allows for the higher frequency of potentially harmful recessive traits to be manifested, carried, and spread.

Much like salmon farming can be very detrimental to the genetics of wild salmonids.
 
#7 · (Edited)
All the possible/probable ecological problems aside (in reflection to what PeteW said), Imho this is perfectly OK unless it's confused with hunting wild game animals.

There are a couple of high profile bowhunters in our neck of the woods who have done that, travelling the globe far and wide, and then written about it in local magazines but somehow forgetting to mention the actual circumstances of the activity. I know of a hunt where the guide received an order to find a **** with the largest possible rack, and make sure that it would be in a suitable location for the "hunt" when the client arrives. The order was placed almost 18 months in advance of the hunt. Afterwards, with much ado, the story of the hunt of a lifetime was published.

But each to their own, as long as they are honest about what they do.
Or maybe I'm just jealous since I dont have the funds. Nah, doesn't seem likely.

-bm.
 
#8 ·
A lot of guys seem to forget about the famous whitetail ranch called The Santuary. It's a high fenced operation where they do select breeding, and kill some very big whitetails.
What's the difference in a high fenced hunt or a hunt on private land that has light hunting pressure and the bucks just stand there? The King Ranch comes to mind. Everyone would love to hunt that place, right?
Not all game farms are bad, sorry. Think of all the whitetail studies that are done inside these high fenced areas. Studies that couldn't be done in the wild, on wild deer. but because of the controlled enviroment, the studies could be carried out successfully.
Me, personally, would love to see these kids from Make A Wish be able to hunt and kill deer in a high fenced ranch, a place that could garauntee success. Kids with disabilities, wheel chair bound, or cancer and don't have the strength to walk the woods or sit in stands.
It's not the fenced ranches that give hunting a bad name, but the big name guys that hunt them to kill trophy bucks cause they need to, have to, for their sponsors. And try to keep things secret. Thats what hurts hunting, guys that do it for their ego, not the game ranchs.
 
#9 ·
I think the best parallel for me between hunting and high fence ranches would be fishing for huge stocked rainbows in a pond. There's nothing wrong with tossing worms to them and putting them on the stringer for the table. I simply don't consider it really the kind of fishing I enjoy and no matter how large the fish, I wouldn't consider one of them to be a trophy fish to mount for the wall.

I've butchered plenty of animals for the table and never considered anything wrong with that. I never did enjoy it or consider it to be sport and I definitely would never pay for the right to dispatch an animal put there for the purpose of being dispatched by anyone but God.

I also realize that's just a value judgment on my part and have no right to extend that value judgment as an assumed standard for all people. I found the link to the site by googling "whitetail semen". I was curious to see if the trophy hunting industry had extended to animal husbandry and wasn't surprised at all to find out it had. I had mixed feelings about it and thought it would be a good topic for the philosophy forum here.
 
#10 ·
"Googling whitetail semen"? Thinking of starting your own whitetail breeding ranch? Go out and collect it yourself, might save you a lot of money. Course, there is the chance of getting yourself hurt, but hey, whats life without a few chances.
Get yourself a Texas Trophy Hunter magazine, and you'll find lots of whitetail semen for sell. There's a huge buck named Peanut that is bringing over 5 grand for his semen. And thats for a couple of grams.
Whitetail hunting is getting big, and guys are willing to pay huge amounts of money for B&C bucks, so Texans being Texans, they stat milking the trophy bucks in their pens, sick sumbitches. But hey, anything for a buck, right?
High fenced hunts are a huge debate, and everyone, sir, will and does have his/her own opinion on them. There is always the ethical/nonethical approach to everything, and what you as a hunter are willing to do or pay for a huge B&C buck.
 
#11 ·
PB,

I like the big rainbows in the small pond analogy. I believe mature or trophy sized game animals harvested under fairchase conditions require a certain degree of challenge and reflect a certain degree of mastery on part of the hunter/fisherman to overcome their sensory advantage. I therefore think it is ho-hum to harvest trophy animals from behind high fences because their ability to survive is lessened, unless it is a massive amount of land. Challenge is the reason I hunt with a bow exclusively for large game. Challenge is why I also choose a recurve.

BTW, since it was mentioned, the RMEF had planned to re-introduce elk into NYS, and the plan was approved by the NYS DEC to release them into various state forests in the Catskill and Adirondack Mountains. However, with the discovery of CWD out west and in some captive herds in NYS, that decision has been put on hold indefinitely. This is unfortunate as it would have been awesome to have the elk back in NYS.
 
#12 ·
Crowdog said:
"Googling whitetail semen"? Thinking of starting your own whitetail breeding ranch? Go out and collect it yourself, might save you a lot of money. Course, there is the chance of getting yourself hurt, but hey, whats life without a few chances.
Guess you missed the rest explaining I googled it. I'll try to explain it again. I was interested in knowing whether there was a "trophy" stud program going in private ranching operations. I was pretty sure there was, but it's easy to find out these days. That's what Google is good for. 'Nother mystery solved :)
 
#13 ·
No sir, I didn't miss it, just thought you'd need a little more information for your next business venture. Know you now you're thinking about it, where to build the pens and the sheds, give you something to do as a hobby, you know, instead of shooting a bow all the time. Just trying to keep you busy.
Would you hunt one, all else being equal, no funny things, a quality hunt with a garuntee to kill a trophy buck, high fenced, with restrictions on what you could shoot? Me, I might, if things were right, might enjoy being pampered, as long as someone wasn't holding his head down as I pulled the trigger. HAHAHA
Course, I'd draw the line with them wanting to collect semen before I shot him. You know, maybe, if I could take pictures of him away from the sqeeze chutes. Sponsors get a little worried about corrals, sheds, or chutes in the photograph. Yessir, wonder how strong the meat would taste, if it had that gamey taste to it, or if they would charge extra for the steriods. HAHAHA, now that there is funny.
Papa Bull, just pulling your chain sir, know that you're deep in though about this, but do you have the Santuary's phone number?
 
#15 ·
No sir, I understand, know what you're coming from, understand your view point. You make a guy think about things, and thats not right for a Sunday afternoon. Should be making dinner, trying to help the better half out, but now I'm looking up the Sanutary, thinking of booking a hunt. HAHAHA course now I'll need to sell some bows and arrows. Anybody need a few wore out Bob Lee's and a Widow?
I've guided on a few big ranches out here, were the hunting pressure is low, five elk hunters a year, and we hunt from September through November, so the elk are "tame". Bugling to bulls from the trucks, shooting bulls as they come walking up the roads. And yessir, had a few big named bowhunters that hunted that ranch and wrote articles about it. Never liked that ranch.
Well sirs, it's dinner time, wife is giving me the "look", daughters are wanting to play softball, and I've got to contact the Santuary! You open for November, or are you going to be busy collecting semen? HAHAHA
 
#17 ·
Lambow said:
Unless i misssed it, they don't say how many acres are fenced in. If it's in the thousands, i don't see where it would matter. If it were thousands of acres with 100 acre tracts fenced off, it would matter.
This is what makes the difference for me. I would hunt a fenced ranch that was thousands and thousands of acres big with free roaming trophies. I don't see this as really different than a large tract of land that has been managed for big racks.

I would not hunt a ranch that was only a few hundred acres big with big feeders on every forty. I don't have a problem with people that would, it just isn't my thing.
 
#18 ·
It's the messing with genetics that I don't like. When it comes to "high-fence" hunting, guess it would depend on how BIG of acreage it is and if the animals were left to there own survival and not "pampered" like farm stock.

Wild white-tailed deer usually live their entire lives within a 2 square mile area and in many situations less than that (if the habitat supports them). The term "high-fence hunting ranch" can be rather misleading at times, based on that fact. I guess the biggest problem I have with the high-fence thing, is that the animals couldn't move on, even if they wanted to. It takes away the "wild" part of it.

There are many deer hunting operatons here in Illinois that provide wild animals to hunt (non-genetic altered) on various leased private properties that run together to make one big hunting zone. But I still have a hard time calling it "hunting" when a guide places the stand and takes the hunter to it. That is not hunting in my opinion, that is shooting. Now if the hunter chose a DIY approach with scouting and placing his own stand.... that would be hunting. The "management" of a local deer herd to take advantage of buck:doe ratio to provide higher numbers of trophy deer is fine, as long as it does not diminish the herd's ability to thrive within their own natural living zone.
 
#20 · (Edited)
One last point.
"It's the messing with genetics that I don't like." Me too.

Whitetailed deer do indeed have a limited home range, but that range is established by young bucks after they have been forced to disperse out of the maternal home range prior to sexual maturity. This process prevents inbreeding in wild populations. However, if this outward dispersal is prevented, inbreeding could occur and create an inbreeding depression, and thus this could potentially cause disastrous consequences over time. This effect could occur even on large ranches. In addition, if these mutants escape, they bring their inbred genes with them to the wild stock.

These concerns are why biologists get so anxious over small pops of inbred Florida panthers, cheetahs, etc. Genetic meltdown is enhanced and expedited. A 1% increase in inbreeding causes an 11 fold increase in pathological recessive breeding disorders.
 
#22 ·
There is one of these operations about 1 hour north of me. You can see the high fence and the whitetail in it from the road. The way I understand it the deer are raised and let go in the high fenced area with is a couple hundred acres to be hunted. Every time I see the high fence, I get a funny feeling in the pit of my stomache.

First, I have never taken a record book deer but would love to have one on my wall. But not like that. It seems it is more about the bragging rights of having a trophy buck on the wall instead of the process. Seems like a short cut to success. Second, we have wild whitetails all over the place in southern Michigan, so I can't see paying that kind of money to shoot animals that are everywhere just because the antlers are bigger. If I had that kind of money I would use it to lease some hard to find hunting land instead or go on a elk or moose hunt in out west or in Alaska. I think I will just continue taking and eating my small bucks until lady luck shines on me with a big buck ( I have seen them in the wild from time to time). I feel that if I spend enough time in the woods I will find a big buck that zigs when he should zag and will meet my arrow. Just my two cent.
 
#23 ·
Papabull, you never mentioned having a brother! hehehe

I have to agree that messing with the wildlife's genetics, while perhaps well-intentioned, often results in unfavorable consequences that were(are) unforseeable. "It's not nice to fool with Mother Nature (thunder goes here)." CWD transmission is an excellent example of this.

As for 'hunting' behind high fences, I once went on such a pig 'hunt'. A low-buck affair involving Russian pigs enclosed on a few hundred acres. They were a little wary but I was able to stalk up on one without too much difficulty. There was little sense of accomplishment, other than making a good shot on a pig in a pen. IMHO, that is not hunting. It is merely filling the freezer with pork by doing your own killing. Nothing more, nothing less. I view all high fence operations the same way, no matter how many acres. This is not to disparage anyone for going on such an adventure. It's just not my cup of tea.
 
#26 ·
"Alberta gets to thank Game farms for the current outbreak of CWD and the cull of hundreds of wild deer by our F&W every year."


Pete & Bowjack,

Could you fella's please point me to a place that gives the evidence that CWD has entered the wild herd as a result of fenced farms. Seems to me that if it that has been proven, that Game and Fish Departments all over North America would close them immediately.

Thanks,

JC
 
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